Episode 2: Gazan-American & Jewish-Israeli Discuss Hostage Families, Activism, and Tribalism
Tune in to Episode 2 of a new special series of conversations between Z3 founder and podcast host Rabbi Amitai Fraiman and Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, a passionate activist for Gazans and Palestinians.
In this episode, Ahmed reflects on his recent trip to Washington, DC, where he met with hostage families and U.S. officials and he shares the impact of those interactions on his vision for peace. He and Amitai discuss the internal politics of Gaza as Ahmed questions misleading polling data that suggests widespread support for Hamas in Gaza and highlights the cognitive dissonance caused by years of isolation and propaganda. Despite the violence, Ahmed emphasizes moments of humanity and kindness he has witnessed between Palestinians and Israelis, even in Gaza, which give him hope for the future. He shares his mission to be a unique bridge builder between the pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian communities, moderating difficult but valuable dialogues online. The episode also touches on the broader geopolitical implications of the conflict, particularly the role of Iran and regional power struggles, highlighting the importance of resolving the conflict for lasting peace in the Middle East.
We are deeply grateful to Ahmed for joining us in this difficult but crucial conversation in these times of deep division and strife.
About our guest:
Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib is an American writer and analyst who grew up in Gaza City, having left in 2005 as a teenage exchange student to the United States. He writes extensively on Gaza’s political and humanitarian affairs and has been an outspoken critic of Hamas and a promoter of coexistence and peace as the only path forward between Palestinians and Israelis. Alkhatib is a resident senior fellow with the Scowcroft Middle East Security Initiative at the Atlantic Council’s Middle East Programs. He has a bachelor’s degree in business administration and a master’s in intelligence and national security studies. His writing has been published in US, and Israeli outlets and his opinions and comments have been featured in the international press.
Episode Transcript
Hi, and welcome to the Z3 podcast. I'm Amitai Fraiman, I'm the director of the Z3 project, and this is our podcast.
00:01:09:08 - 00:01:27:15
Today's episode is a part two of my conversation with my friend Ahmed Fouad AlKhatib, nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council. He's a Palestinian writer and peace activist. We picked up where we left off last time. We heard about his recent trip to DC, where he worked with and met with hostage families and members of the American government and its different branches.
00:01:27:18 - 00:01:48:12
And we heard about his understanding of what's going on in the streets and the public opinion of Hamas and what it's done. On October 7th and the aftermath, of course. And we talked about hope and resilience and bridge building, and how do we think we should be moving forward as people who have skin in the game? We heard about his frustrations with some of his fellow activists from within the pro-Palestine camp and, of course, in the pro-Israel camp.
00:01:48:14 - 00:02:13:05
And it was an interesting conversation. it was difficult, in moments. It was heartbreaking. It was inspiring. But most of all, I felt like it was an important installment of this conversation. And so, I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. And please joining us, join us for more podcast episodes coming. look out for our upcoming, information about our conference November 17th, and please follow us on our various platforms.
00:02:13:08 - 00:02:32:21
This is the Z3 podcast. I'm Amitai Fraiman, and today's conversation with Ahmed Fouad AlKhatib, a nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, a Palestinian writer and peace activist. I hope you enjoyed this episode, Ahmed. It's good that, you know, you're here. You're joining us for a second installation, I guess, of this conversation. Welcome back. Thank you. Thanks.
00:02:32:21 - 00:02:53:26
Phenomenal. I'm really excited. I really enjoy our conversations. I have to say, I'm smiling because I just, like, enjoy energy, even though it's a heavy topic. You know, we ended our last conversation. you know, we covered some stuff, that were, you know, obviously in the midst of this ongoing war, that doesn't seem to be, coming to a close.
00:02:53:26 - 00:03:13:04
Unfortunately. and we heard, you know, the, the gut wrenching and the of the tragedy of the loss of your family members. and I don't want to, you know, and you know, that weighs very, very heavy. And still, it's good to have you back and, thank you for the space.
00:03:13:04 - 00:03:33:17
Yeah, I love our talks as well. And I feel like people that actually have skin in the game need to be doing this, not, those who, you know, are cosplaying as revolutionaries. Yeah. I think that they're going to Palestinian. A Palestinian or an Israeli. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, I'm grateful for this opportunity. And we're here, I guess, to pick up where we left off.
00:03:33:17 - 00:04:00:00
You know, last time we covered a whole range of topics. We heard a, you know, it was good to set the stage with, with your own story of how you ended up, here in the Bay area. You talk about your family's upbringing in Gaza, and we ended, you know, the last chunk of it was really about this idea of self-determination, for Palestinians and this need that, you know, in a way, to mirror the Zionist movement in that it's taking agency and the destiny of our self and our people and our family and community, etc.
00:04:00:02 - 00:04:17:21
And, and I want to pick up from there because I think it's a good thread. And of course, we have a lot to talk about. today. So, you know, I just, I, you know, I want to start with that because I think there's a good tie in here. You know, you mentioned, in our last conversation, this idea of and you and you and you asked me to ask you this, prodded me.
00:04:17:22 - 00:04:53:11
You said I should not shy away from it. This idea of what we've seen on the streets, immediately, of October 7th. I know things have changed since, but, you know, there's a question of the participation and the celebration of, the October 7th, event itself. and then also what we're seeing in polls because in this conversation, it promises won't be a run on question, but part of what's fueling online debate and on the ground kind of decision-making is this, perception.
00:04:53:13 - 00:05:12:03
part of it might be real, part of how much of it is, I guess, what this is going to be about. But that there's a clear identification with what Hamas has done, on the streets. and I want to I want, you know, I'd be grateful if you can help us unpack that and understand that, from your perspective.
00:05:12:03 - 00:05:32:28
Certainly, certainly. So, it's important to think that, you know, you have Hamas as an entity, as, a resistance group. But then there's the broader concept of resistance. Resistance being nonviolent, being the armed resistance, being the like, you know, playing to your olive trees and live by them, the resistance of, like, we're going to stay on the land.
00:05:32:28 - 00:05:57:12
It's there's different tiers and shades of what the Palestinian people consider resistance. And so, it has been kind of put in people's head that Hamas and this is partly because of Hamas's own propaganda and equating themselves to the, the resistance, making themselves from even a linguistic point of view, McCollum is the word for resistance. So, they don't say we're Hamas.
00:05:57:12 - 00:06:17:05
They say muqawima. Which translates into “resistance”. So, they don't refer to themselves as just Hamas. They say muqawima. Yeah. So, and I remember vividly I was in as I shared, I was in Gaza and at the tail end of Oslo in the 90s, I was in there throughout the whole, Second Intifada.
00:06:17:07 - 00:06:43:14
And so, this is partly the product of three decades of, of we need to understand that you can this is how Hamas puts it out. You can disagree with us as Hamas, but you have to support us as muqawima, as an act of resistance. And so, you will, in fact, find people that are Fatah or people that are not affiliated with Hamas who do support acts of resistance against Israel,
00:06:43:17 - 00:07:24:15
military acts by Hamas. you do have folks in Gaza that have never met an Israeli, have never met a Jew in their life. 70% of Gazans have never left the Gaza Strip. And we're talking half of the strip is under 18 or so. And so unfortunately, yes, we do have an environment where they've known when you have half of the population that has only known Hamas rule for the last 18 years, when you have half of the population that has only known eight hours of electricity a day, poor water, inability to travel and ability to have a meaningful life, the economic conditions in their mind, this is the result of Israel, the
00:07:24:15 - 00:07:47:21
blockade, the occupation, even though other Palestinians in their mind, the or the blockade is a direct result of Hamas, is a direct result of the armed resistance narrative and armed resistance actions. So that's big picture. But it is a fact that Hamas does, in fact, have support within Gaza. Like I've never tried to manufacture dissent where none exist.
00:07:47:26 - 00:08:24:14
But these polls are so misrepresented because there are others. There's this one center that does these polls and they're well known. They get the media. But there are other smaller operations that have conducted polling that are entirely inconsistent with the outcomes that Mr. Shikaki's polling has captured. And I don't know if I said this last time, but I just find it hard to believe that after October 7th, after the disaster that it's taking place right now, somebody who's standing in line at a dirty, disgusting bathroom waiting for food handouts or waiting for water is just sitting there and saying, wow.
00:08:24:14 - 00:08:59:06
October 7th did as a solid October 7th was great. Or Hamas is a helpful element of the Palestinian national project. On October 7th, what happened was entirely unprecedented. People saw and I just think the novelty of it— and this is why I don't like— to be clear, I don't justify this. I'm not. I simply want to acknowledge that, yes, there were people that celebrated this because they've never seen Israelis so vulnerable, so weak, they've never seen Palestinian militants do what they believe.
00:08:59:06 - 00:09:24:16
The Israeli military does to Palestinians on a regular basis in the West Bank or has in the Gaza Strip. Now parallel with that, as we saw those scenes of people celebrating, I remember vividly it was October 6th here when I saw dozens of Arabic social media posts on, Twitter and on Facebook realizing that Hamas just launched the disaster upon us.
00:09:24:22 - 00:09:46:27
People were not celebrating. People were saying, you guys are delusional. This is crap. This is bullshit. This is not like it wasn't necessarily like, oh, we shouldn't take women and children as hostages. It was more about realizing that Hamas did this at the behest of Iran. Hamas did this to sabotage the Saudis, Israeli normalization. Hamas did this to deal with the low popularity.
00:09:46:27 - 00:10:13:02
Hamas did this to escape the governance business. And so, there are celebrations that took place, and I think they're shameful. I think they can be attributed to a sense of resentment. both real and perceived, towards Israel being the direct cause of people's misery. I think, unfortunately, the novelty of it and the success of it just like, mesmerized a lot of people.
00:10:13:02 - 00:10:34:05
But this is what I the same thing that I say is something happened after October 7th with a lot of the pro-Palestine movement whereby people used to normally say, oh, well, I don't like Hamas, but the blockade or I don't like Hamas, but the occupation. And then in the diaspora and particularly in the Western world, something happened where it was like, actually, no, Hamas is good.
00:10:34:06 - 00:10:55:23
Hamas is resistance. I love Hamas like it was because for years the nor the thought process was armed. Resistance against Israel is futile and it can never achieve any results. And then people saw what Hamas did. They were like, oh, maybe there is a path forward with armed resistance. Maybe there is, you know, because there was this idea of you live by the sword, you die by the sword.
00:10:55:29 - 00:11:26:04
There will come a day when the Arabs or the Muslims or the Palestinians have enough military might to be able to challenge Israel. So, it's a lot more complicated than just the curriculums to teach due hatred. I there's nothing in the curriculum that you can point to specific that says hate the Jews, go kill Israelis. It's a matter of editorializing that a lot of teachers engage in within the curriculum, by the way, that there's also no on curriculum, Hamas curriculum.
00:11:26:04 - 00:11:48:22
It's all the Ministry of Education, Palestinian Authority, a curriculum that is paid for by the Belgians and by the European Union that is scrutinized for hatred and overt, explicit anti-Semitism. But then sometimes they'll be supplementary materials that somebody, a teacher brings in. They'll be like, as I said, it's like you have a lesson plan versus what you actually teach.
00:11:48:26 - 00:12:18:12
So, it's a lot more nuanced. And again, we saw what five, 10,000 people celebrate what happened on October 7th. But that is and let's add them, let's say 10,000, let's say 20,000 celebrating out of a 2.3 million population where you have 50 to 150,000 Hamas militants, estimated let's say you have another 100 or 200,000, who are broader members of Hamas?
00:12:18:16 - 00:12:51:02
We're talking about what, 300,000, 400,000 500,000 out of a 2.3 million population. So, it is shameful what took place. I am ashamed that people celebrated the taking of women and children as and the elderly as hostages. But I hate to say it. Unfortunately, it doesn't. Part of it doesn't surprise me and that this, these people have not had a chance to know anything other than war and isolation and all the baggage that comes with that.
00:12:51:07 - 00:13:14:24
And I think many of them, if given a chance to meet Israelis, to meet Jews, to realize something like three quarters of Gazans were asked, have you seen because we've seen all the videos, the horrible videos of the executions, just the crimes against humanity that Hamas conducted and carried out. But many in Gaza still believe that this was strictly a military operation.
00:13:14:26 - 00:13:38:15
Because of the propaganda by Hamas. Many in Gaza still believe that no atrocities took place either because they haven't seen those videos or they think those videos are made up, which is bizarre because Hamas themselves posted them. So, like, there's so much cognitive dissonance between Hamas's propaganda versus what's real versus what people think versus what people want to perceive.
00:13:38:18 - 00:14:03:18
I just encourage us all to acknowledge that complexity, and that it is not as simple as all Palestinians, and all Gazans simply want that Jews, they're all Palestinians. And all Gazans celebrated what took place on October 10th. And I'm talking about Gaza in a particular context, not the West Bank. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, all that sounds, you know, it's.
00:14:03:20 - 00:14:27:20
I think the difficulty from someone who is, you know, sitting on the other side of this, you know, myself included. Right. Is that, you know, it's very hard to— in real time and in the rawness of it, to make that distinction. And I think that for some, for Israelis at least, or for, you know, the perspective of, you know, of, well, how could they not know, right, that that's not what we're about.
00:14:27:27 - 00:14:59:22
Right. We had Gazans coming in every day. Aid was coming in. And it's an important reminder to be— again, it's not about it's not about giving a pass to that behavior, but understanding that we're not working with the same level of familiarity and knowledge and exposure. And so, I think from that kind of limited, you know, experience, you know, it doesn't justify, but at least you can say, you know, I this percentage of people, this what they're doing, I think that we're where some folks get tripped up and I and I don't again, like, I don't first of all like I want to be clear.
00:14:59:22 - 00:15:24:19
Like you're not here to defend or justify or explain. Right. But you do have insight that I just I and many of our audiences just simply don't have. Right. And so, it's not about saying, well, here's, here's my, here's my data, please, you know, refute it. Right. But I think that part of the emotional struggle here that people trying to understand is, you know, when you do like, how do you how do you how do you cope with that?
00:15:24:19 - 00:15:39:25
And I think, you know, and beyond how do you cope with it? I think, you know, this leads the second pieces. You know, if you, you know, you grew up in this in a similar environment, you, you were shot upon like you're not like, you know, you, you got to show, you know, you were on the beach, right?
00:15:39:25 - 00:16:04:06
And you and, it killed, an injured you and killed your friends and injured you, and you were exposed to the same level of intensity. And for some, you know, somehow something happened along the way that allow you to kind of see, a broader, a broader view. And, and that's the privilege of having gotten out number one, that's the privilege of having been raised in a family that is entirely politically independent.
00:16:04:08 - 00:16:25:02
I was raised with an ethos of you question things, you question what you're told you. You question the different ideas. Yes. My dad, my come from a very religious Muslim family. but I was always I was around Hamas and PA and Fatah people when I was, when I was growing up in there, I met Ahmed Yassin, the founder of Hamas, multiple times.
00:16:25:07 - 00:16:52:27
And I met Yasser Arafat and Mohammed Dahlan, and, and a whole host of others in between. Like, to me, I knew there are so many. I was genuinely inspired by my Uncle Aria, who was who was killed in this street and in this war, who's like who was a day laborer and, and regularly interacted with Israelis. There were so many people in Gaza who I mean, half of Gaza was built by the money brought back from day laborers.
00:16:52:29 - 00:17:16:28
Just like a year and a half before October 7th. And I shared this on my Twitter page. There was a video of day laborers at the Arabs crossing surrounding two female soldiers and one Israeli soldier, and they had their ID cards and the soldiers were passing out, calling out the names and passing them out. And people were laughing and joking with the soldiers.
00:17:16:28 - 00:17:40:08
And there were like literally three soldiers, of whom two were female and close to 100 Palestinian men surrounding them. And it was it was a rare insight into the potential for camaraderie, even. And I caught so much crap from the pro-Palestine people for saying that because they were like, these are still soldiers on occupiers. And these Palestinians had to be kind of nice to them by force, whatever.
00:17:40:13 - 00:18:17:24
But I don't care about that. I care about just if we put aside the occupation, if we put aside the fact that these soldiers had their guns, you had an entirely calm, friendly environment where people were joking and whistling and playing almost playfully engaging with these soldiers. so, I just, I bring that up in the like, even within Gaza, even within this awful environment, the capacity for humanity and kindness, even among people that may support the resistance or may have celebrated October 7th, it is there.
00:18:18:02 - 00:18:46:00
Even if it might be faint, it might be like a candle light that's just about to go out. But it's still there. And my goal is to try to remember that it is there. Yeah, because that gives me hope for beyond this war and for a decade or 2 or 5 from now. And I think Israelis, I know for the most part, I think that what I find and I just came back from a visit there, visiting family, and I what I find and I admit, like, this is the environment that I grew up in, right?
00:18:46:00 - 00:19:07:15
This is this is not new, but there's an accelerated, sense of a loss of that hope. you know, I think that Israelis, for a long time, if it's Oslo and then slowly and slowly after it's been eroded. But this idea, you know, there isn't like the other side is just interested. and, you know, if it's Barak's infamous.
00:19:07:18 - 00:19:25:11
Did he actually say this phrase or not. Is, is, is not is a separate question. But no, there's no partner. Right. This idea I mean, I think that there's like I think that's what I, to me is the most, for being frank. And it's one of the so one of the things that's difficult, of course, you know, I'd like to see the, you know, hostages come home for sure.
00:19:25:11 - 00:19:48:16
I'd like to see the end of this, this war and no more. you know, I'd love for kids. You know, kids are being killed up north. Like, there needs to be an end to this. But there seems to be, like, there. What I have trouble with grappling is that there's, you know, the experience that you're sharing here, right, of focusing on the humanity, your family members, your uncle, that kind of inspired you and the people that go in and out.
00:19:48:19 - 00:20:07:26
And then there's just like the noise right around us. and how do we, you know, who seem hellbent on perpetuating this, you know, the expense of our ability to be able to live in a meaningful way. And I, you know, not so much of the question is just like a reflection of like, I don't I don't know how to, you know, I don't how to move forward.
00:20:07:26 - 00:20:26:05
Right. You say that like that's a day that we're like, you know, I remember the disengagement of what happened after, right? I remember what led to it. I remember, you know, before even Israel, you know, fully was in control of Gaza. What happened with when Egypt was in control there? You know, there's like it seems to be like there's something fundamentally, and this is a great pain.
00:20:26:05 - 00:20:58:06
Like that. It's like, I don't know how to fix this alignment and this belief that no matter what, bad players like Hamas and others pollute the water, pollute the scene, they influence the masses, they hijack the narrative. And I agree and I concede and I'm it pains me, but guess what? It pains and troubles so many other Palestinians in Gaza, even as we speak, even at like just statistics alone, half of Gaza was aligned with Fatah and the PA.
00:20:58:08 - 00:21:16:12
Yeah. Before but like before, just historically and before October 7th. And these are people that are ideally logically and politically, ideologically and politically opposed to Hamas and opposed to the whole armed resistance narrative, because a lot of Fatah happy guys, and I'm not a Fatah guy, but I know them very well. They're like, yeah, we tried the armed resistance.
00:21:16:12 - 00:21:47:06
We did the Olympics, we did this, we did that. We did all the PLO. And we made a courageous decision to like, go of armed resistance in exchange for negotiations. And we had a real shot. And Oslo and Hamas with Iranian support, was absolutely sabotaging the fragile yet the fragile yet viable Oslo peace process. And that's why to me, they were the counterpart to Netanyahu in the 90s in fighting against Rabin, inciting against the labor, pushing back against Oslo.
00:21:47:08 - 00:22:08:29
And I see them as a useful idiot in a broader design regional proxy, whether it be, you know, I am of the belief that Netanyahu use Hamas as a proxy to divide the Palestinians, to separate them, to keep the West Bank and Gaza separate and say, I don't have a partner. That's not to abdicate Palestinian responsibility in how Gaza devolved and what took place there.
00:22:09:01 - 00:22:28:00
But Hamas is a proxy of Netanyahu in that regard. They're a proxy of Iran in the that or— I don’t want to piss off my Iranian friends or my Persian friends. The Islamic Republic of Iran, they really feel very strongly about that.
00:22:28:00 - 00:22:47:25
You know, words and terms matter in this sense. Because if we're going to try and change the conversation and the narrative, we have to be very accurate. And I think that, you know. Yeah, sure. For reasons—good, bad, depending where people sit. Right.
00:22:47:25 - 00:23:12:15
But like, the need to separate between the West Bank and Gaza was certainly a play that has been made at the expense of potential real progress. Precisely. You know, and this is a point that I think that people don't fully understand. You know, what you referred to as cosplayers is that the Islamic Republic and some of these bad actors, they don't actually care about the Palestinian cause.
00:23:12:17 - 00:23:33:29
Right. When you say proxy, you have to understand, it's not an extension of it's just a useful tool for them in a much, much broader geopolitical play. And that's the tragedy of this whole thing. And that's why when you look at the, at the, the evolution of or the potential of, you know, this normalization of the Saudis and, you know, with the with the other, Gulf states.
00:23:34:02 - 00:23:50:22
You know, that's where I, I see it, but we're kind of we're going up very quickly, which is fascinating. Interesting. But I want to I want to continue a little bit down this, this line of, you know, we talked about your perception and your understanding and your familiarity with the street and the voices that are happening there and the separation between those who identify with Hamas.
00:23:50:24 - 00:24:07:18
And even if it's a lot of people and frightening and terrible, it's still a small, relatively small number of actual human beings that live there. There's that piece. The other is the focus on humanity, which I think is incredibly important. And that brings me to the next thing is, you just got back from a trip in DC.
00:24:07:21 - 00:24:25:06
And this is not this trip in DC wasn't the beginning of a path you've been on, but you've been involved in this whole, unfortunate reality with the hostages and Noa Argamani’s family, earlier on. And I want to hear about your kind of reflections in that trip. And what did you learn?
00:24:25:12 - 00:24:48:10
Certainly. So, I think it should come as no surprise to anybody that I want this war ended immediately. I despise Hamas, I don't want a ceasefire that freezes the conflict. I want this, I want there to be political transformation 100%. That said, I strongly believe that this war is not just against Hamas. This is a war that is destroying all of Gaza.
00:24:48:10 - 00:25:13:14
This is a war that is being used as a political play by the same players that got us to where we're at, the Hamas and Netanyahu and that doesn't mean moral equivalency. It doesn't mean it's a one for one tit for tat. But I see them as both inseparable. Nevertheless, I don't want there to be a return to what we were October 6th, and we're here in five, ten years from now.
00:25:13:17 - 00:25:40:10
At the same time, I want this war to end. Far too many tens of thousands have lost their lives. This is not going anywhere. It's dangerous for the hostages. It's killing Palestinians. And what remains of my family. So that is like my number one goal on priority in the world right now and in life is to see this war stopping in a manner that initiates political transformation, but also, equally importantly, gets the hostages released.
00:25:40:12 - 00:26:04:26
I have made a point from early on. I mean, I was horrified by the dehumanization of Israeli hostages and women and children being taken, and that being celebrated as an act of resistance or like I understand that there's the issue of a lot of un unfairly and unjustly held Palestinians in Israeli detention. but I just I feel like there's been this normalization of this idea that.
00:26:04:26 - 00:26:42:14
Yeah, well, hostage Israeli hostages for our hostages. And I think it's a lot more complicated than that. I want to be an ally with the for the hostage families, number one, from a point of humanity and empathy, because I cannot imagine how awful that must be to know that your loved ones might be in a dungeon, underground somewhere, and Hamas tunnels, or they might be getting abused or not meant not to forget the manner in which they were captured and how that took place during a horrendous, violent episode where some of these hostages saw their loved ones being killed and then they were captured.
00:26:42:16 - 00:27:07:00
So, hostage families have been allies. They've been friends. and they're not just leftists and peace activists. They're right leaning people. They're everyday people. They're it's like a cross-section across the entirety of Israeli society that all of a sudden were put in the spotlight due to this horrendous tragedy. And so, I have been making a point that this is an opportunity to work with these folks for healing and reconciliation.
00:27:07:00 - 00:27:35:06
And many of them, unfortunately, don't have enough Palestinian allies. Not that there aren't. There are many Palestinians, particularly in Gaza, who are saying, stop the who are saying to Hamas, release the hostages to stop this war to end, to end our killing. But in terms of an equitable partner that is face to face, shaking your hand saying, we are in this together, we are working for the same thing, which is to end the war and get the hostages released.
00:27:35:09 - 00:27:55:17
There are very few voices, that have my lived experience and my background and my credibility and my standing as a Palestinian, and so and that doesn't make me feel special. It actually is kind of embarrassing. Like, I wish there were more people who saw these because the hostage families in DC were saying, end the war and seal the deal.
00:27:55:19 - 00:28:18:10
Isn't that what was a pro-Palestine movement supposedly once like cease fire now like, like and in fact, I was with some of these hostage families in DC and we were praying for an end of the war. We were praying for a hostage deal and a cease fire. And then some of these pro-Palestine folks march on by. And they started like heckling the pro-Israel folks because they saw some Israeli flags or whatever.
00:28:18:17 - 00:28:59:05
So to me, this was an opportunity to really stand there as an ally and go and talk to U.S. officials, legislators, NGOs, influencers and, and Jewish organizations as well, and say, enough, the Jewish, the, the Israeli hostage families want your support, for the hostage deal, be they want you to place pressure on Netanyahu because it is true that Hamas has come up with random obstacles and specific obstacle, like Hamas is playing a game because they want to make sure this war ends in a way that allows them to claim victory, because they know there's going to be a reckoning.
00:28:59:07 - 00:29:23:25
That's going to happen after the end of the war. But it is a fact and indisputable one. And I'm in touch with U.S. officials that Netanyahu is a primary, if not the primary, from their point of view, obstacle to this war attitude to achieving the hostage deal for two simple reasons. He wants the war to keep going so that he escapes, potential accountability because his coalition has threatened to collapse the government if he ends the war.
00:29:23:27 - 00:30:01:05
And actually a third one is he's hoping for a particular outcome in the upcoming presidential election that he thinks will give him free rein to go after Gaza, Lebanon and Iran in a way that annoys him as a permanent column dictator, wannabe or war commander or whatever he aspires to so that is so abundantly clear to so many Israelis and so many U.S. officials who think that he's stalling and that he's and then he'll say, okay, I accept the deal, and then he'll go on Israeli television and be like, oh, no, we're just going to do a temporary thing, get some hostages out, and then we're going to resume the war.
00:30:01:12 - 00:30:21:17
As if to tell Hamas, don't accept the deal like that. What does that statement he put out 3 or 3 or so weeks ago, and then the next day he tries to backtrack. I mean, these are people that I was standing with shoulder to shoulder, including the father, Yehuda, the father of an IDF soldier, a 19-year-old soldier that is captured by Hamas.
00:30:21:17 - 00:30:46:19
He's probably one of the first to be tortured by Hamas. He was part of two tanks that had that were that were securing the entire border. And he was captured by Hamas and I'm going to be honest with you at first, like just with these different folks. Like there was a little bit it took a minute, like, you're Israeli hostage families, you have your daughter, you have your son in the IDF, in the Navy.
00:30:46:21 - 00:31:08:21
I'm a Gazan. They saw pictures of my family. They're all wearing hijabs. Like I talked about my dead family members. But I chose to go the extra mile to try to assure them that I am here as an ally. I do not hold you responsible for what happened to my family.
00:31:08:23 - 00:31:26:05
And we have the same goal of wanting— I want to see your loved ones released and I want to see my loved ones survive. And that was a powerful journey. The first day there was some unspoken tension, if you will. It wasn't tension against me, but it was like, I don't know how to feel about a
00:31:26:05 - 00:31:54:07
Gazan sitting next to me. And there was another, because these are like across the political spectrum, like Israeli hostage families. And some of them were like extraordinarily, like they voted for Netanyahu. They are pro-IDF. They despise Hamas, as do I. Obviously. So, it was a beautiful moment. We went and talked to several congresspeople, we and senators and U.S. officials in the white House and elsewhere.
00:31:54:10 - 00:32:25:00
We even—I try to model this, like talking to people with whom you don't agree. So, we actually went and met with Ilhan Omar. And it was Alana and myself, and who had six family members kidnaped in Gaza, five of them were released, one is still there; myself and saying, look, we are here because we want to have a focus on our shared humanity and empathetic approach to ending this war.
00:32:25:03 - 00:32:53:16
We don't think divisive rhetoric is helpful. We don't think intense language is really helpful. And we want you to support our endeavor to end this war and to support— and to acknowledge for me personally, because I think people can assume where Congresswoman Omar stands on some issues. I, as a Palestinian Muslim with skin in the game, want the humanity of Israeli hostage families to be acknowledged.
00:32:53:19 - 00:33:15:17
They are partners in ending this. They are partners in healing and reconciliation. And to her credit, Congresswoman Omar, like listened to that. And I put out my own message, my own picture, my own statement, because I wanted us to be in control of what we put. I didn't want us to be pawns. And it was, again, a powerful experience across the board.
00:33:15:20 - 00:33:39:00
And it really energized me. It showed me the potential, of what can be done when we engage, when we talk, when we work together, when we collaborate. And it made me so sad. I'm ty to like, not see more Palestinians coming and being like, yes, let's work with Israeli hostage families. Why? I mean, you have your personal biography.
00:33:39:02 - 00:34:00:22
You know, it's so inspiring to, you know, the way you're telling this and the emotional, the energy, it's like palpable, right? People are going to hear this on sound. They're going to see the video. I'm here with you in the room. And I can say that it's— I really, really feel it. And I think that that, what more what can we do?
00:34:00:22 - 00:34:20:26
Right. Because Israelis are out in the streets, right. Like, you know, is it easy for me to hear everything that you're saying? No, of course not. Right. I have my own experience, my own biases and exposures to things and, you know, we all have to do the work we have to do to overcome those in order for us to be able to move forward.
00:34:20:28 - 00:34:42:07
But one thing is clear to me that like that, you know, you know, when I was in Israel now driving down the road anywhere I was going, I mean, it's a monument for October 7th, anywhere you go, posters of hostages and stickers everywhere. Right? But also, just as much. I mean, of course, there's the weekly protest, but like everywhere, there's graffiti everywhere about the culpability of this government, right.
00:34:42:07 - 00:34:59:19
And the need to end it. And so Israelis are fed up with it and it's like, okay, it's visible. Whether or not there's like a disconnect between the leadership, we can call them leadership, and the people is clear. But like there's where can we turn to see more of that or how can we create that?
00:34:59:19 - 00:35:24:01
Because, you know, you're saying, you know— I believe you. I believe your experience. I believe what you're saying. and like, how do we get more? How do we see more? How do we, amplify it? And that's my I mean, so as a result of this trip, honestly, I've decided two things.
00:35:24:01 - 00:35:56:26
Number one is that I'm going to move to Washington, DC because I want to inform a lot of these political actors and U.S. officials. And I want to move into the policy space to actually effectuate change. But number two is that I'm going to stick around because I have a month to decide whether or not to go back to my regular job in international development, but I just I see the potentiality for many Palestinians to come along so that this is not just Ahmed, like Ahmed has a unique space to play in this.
00:35:56:26 - 00:36:16:27
But I genuinely think that if we create the space where we clarify, we demystify, what are the Israelis or the Zionists or the right wing? These are not people from like, outer space. These are like humans, like you and I, that we can agree with and disagree with. These are people that are allies.
00:36:16:27 - 00:36:42:20
If we flip the script and it's not and again, this is not kumbaya. This is a pragmatic, ruthlessly pragmatic approach. I really think that with the right persuasion, convincing engagement, written materials, visuals, meaning people like in person and explaining a lot. Let's work with these Israeli hostage families. Let's work for healing and reconciliation. I think there will be more people coming on board.
00:36:42:23 - 00:37:05:22
The problem is, it goes back to what we said before we started today. Most of the time, people just want to be a part of everybody else. They want to be a part of the group, not just because they agree with them, but because it's terrifying to operate as an individual outside of the group. And this is where I say the individuals are smart, the groups are dumb individuals one on one.
00:37:05:24 - 00:37:29:08
They may actually privately agree with me and say, yeah, you have a point. But they're like, oh, well, I don't want to be used by the Zionists or I don't want to be used as a token. And I will say, and I say this respectfully, there are a lot of folks who call them on the pro-Israel side, broadly speaking, whatever that means, an umbrella term, there's different things underneath it.
00:37:29:11 - 00:37:48:09
When as a Palestinian, I think some of them, they're just like hurt and they want to be heard, they want to be acknowledged. Some of them are interested in talking to a Palestinian like myself. Some of them are just like they have their own opinions and they, like any anyone else in a political sphere, they want to just deliver their opinions.
00:37:48:12 - 00:38:10:24
There are folks that take up a lot of space and they struggle with just like hearing, stepping back. Like let like I've tried to bring Palestinians along and they're like, why is it that when you post something, all of these Twitter accounts, for example, with Israeli flags on whatever, are immediately either supporting you or attacking you when you're attacking it?
00:38:10:24 - 00:38:33:16
Like, because I get attacked from people on both sides all the time— like I don't want to put myself out there and have a bunch of Israeli flags like say, yes, we love you, whatever. Like, to me personally, I don't care about like that. I can't control who likes or dislikes my messaging. But there's this thing like, I don't want to be perceived as seen by as a tool for the other side.
00:38:33:18 - 00:38:55:11
And I'm trying to flip that script to flip that narrative and say, you say your truth regardless of who engages with it or not. How about the fact that Iran and al-Qaida and the Taliban, the Islamic Republic, and some of the worst people on earth have come out in support of pro-Palestine protest and the student on campus?
00:38:55:11 - 00:39:23:06
What does that mean? That because al-Qaida, like the Taliban said, we support Gaza and Palestine and the protest around, does that mean you guys like guilt by association? So, like, that's one angle. The other is I just want to the Palestinian folks also feel like they're regularly not heard. There's some truth to that. I think some of that is well, actually, that's kind of like we hear the occupation and the genocide and the refugee like we hear it like that.
00:39:23:13 - 00:39:46:02
There was a time back in the day where it was difficult, as a Palestinian to try to speak out because everything was, you're anti-Semitic, you're anti-Semitic. You cannot equate Israel critique of Israel with antisemitism. But now I feel like things have changed and the Palestinian narrative is heard. So, we need more often. I feel like it's mainstream now, so we need to take that to the next level.
00:39:46:03 - 00:40:08:09
Okay, so we're hurt, but what's the end goal of being heard? Is it just to be heard yelling and screaming or demonizing people that we don't agree with, or saying all Israelis are this, or they don't view this human being? Or is the goal to actually achieve something tangible? This is the biggest frustration. So that was a long-winded way of answering your question of I think part of that's I think it's a three-part thing.
00:40:08:09 - 00:40:27:10
Number one is people are terrified of being seen in the association and in the company of Israelis or Zionists or whatever. You're safe if you're an anti-Zionist Jew like the JVP of the world. I think number two is people are terrified of just being attacked by their own because they don't want to be called a traitor. They want to belong.
00:40:27:17 - 00:40:50:05
The way I've structured my life is like everybody is my community. Like I don't need validation from the Palestinian community in America to feel like I belong. I think the third element is there's a genuine ignorance and kind of like immature immaturity to what is it that we're trying to achieve? Because I saw them in DC, I went to three protests.
00:40:50:07 - 00:41:12:10
I went to a pro-Palestine protest, a pro-Israel protest, pro-Israel Anti-Netanyahu pro hostage deal, and a pro-peace protest. And the pro-peace was the smallest of them all, which is really sad, but the messages and the people who were there were amazing, and they were Palestinians and Israelis. So, in a in a way, it was actually the most meaningful of them all to me.
00:41:12:13 - 00:41:43:25
And the pro-Palestine was the biggest by far. It had like tens of thousands of people. And I saw what took place at the Union Station, in DC, the Hamas symbolism and the al-Qaida flags and the awful, despicable sick messages. and I saw, I swear to God, it was so cringe. I saw so many young people, like, there's like a child leading a like a group of, like 100 or 200 people and like, chance, like a literal child, like chanting the like.
00:41:43:28 - 00:42:08:17
And then there were two there's like these, like cringing chants, like nonstop. And then there were like all these people taking, like, selfies and like they had their fears and they were like, posing. It was so cringe because it was clearly something that's going on Instagram. It's like, look at me. Oh my God. And like just there was something particularly offensive about like the hundreds that I saw posing and like it wasn't just like a selfie.
00:42:08:17 - 00:42:30:17
It was like it was like, look, revolution is so cool and sexy. And I just wanted to scream. I wanted to like, I wanted to lose my cool because I was like, this is what is has become. These are not people interested in solutions. These are not people that are thinking, next step. These are people that are just here to take the shot, put it online, and then they move on with their lives.
00:42:30:17 - 00:42:52:13
What happened with the pro-Palestine encampments on university? They’re in Cabo and in Thailand in Paris, having vacations on the beaches. And now we're left. The cause is left holding the bag. Yeah, they've ruined pro-Palestine activism. They attacked me, calling me a spy and a sellout. And by the way, did you see that thing in DC, when I was— this far left investigative report?
00:42:52:13 - 00:43:15:24
A new investigative report came out against me. Somebody who did an investigation. It was so pathetic. And they invested. And this was like an outlet with like 3 or 400,000 followers on Twitter. And they were like, Ahmed is— Meet the Palestinians being paid to promote Israeli genocide. And they claim that I'm part of a $30 million covert fund by the Israeli government to spread genocide propaganda.
00:43:15:24 - 00:43:31:17
I would have charged you for the coffee. At this point, I feel like maybe, maybe I should get paid for, like the amount of attacks that I've received. They don't know that I'm literally on my last $4,000 right now, about to have to decide whether or not to go back to work or not.
00:43:31:19 - 00:43:49:00
They don't know that I'm about to do a GoFundMe thing, which I cringed at the thought of doing, because I want to move to DC. I want to do this like I want to stick around in this space. So, I guess what I'm saying is, like, there's so many opportunities out there and this is where I get frustrated.
00:43:49:00 - 00:44:12:18
Also, with a lot of the pro-Israel influencers, because unfortunately, and I know many of them, and I hope they don't get offended, but I don't think their intention is to do engagement and dialog. I think there's a lot of money that's being misspent and wasted on equally cringey social media content that's pro-Israel, without it actually moving the needle without it actually seeing the problem.
00:44:12:21 - 00:44:28:00
This is this is a travesty of the moment we're living in, you know, the revolution of social media. And this is kind of in other episodes that I've done in other conversations. But, you know, this idea of social media and people got, you know, in the Arab Spring, people were like, so this was like there was so thrilled about it.
00:44:28:00 - 00:44:49:16
But this idea of connecting people, but we're forgetting or we ignore or we don't know, whatever it is, not you and me, but the general conversation is that these are meant to be these are these are corporations. Their mission is to make money. And they're going to do whatever they can to maximize the bottom line. And this is not an anti-capitalist rant.
00:44:49:17 - 00:45:13:22
It's just that's the fact. And so, they're incentivized not to let people like you and me interact and lower the flames because the model incentivizes, you know, shocking, you know, graphic, extreme, and loud voices. Right. That's just the, the way it's engineered. Right. It's not a bug,
00:45:13:22 - 00:45:31:14
it's a feature of the whole thing. And so, activists, right, in order to see numbers of engagement, which is what is a currency through which they trade. Right. They're, you know, either, they're aware of it or they're not aware of it, but they move in a much more extreme direction.
00:45:31:14 - 00:45:49:20
And that just ultimately leads to much greater separation. And that's the beauty. And that's true on all sides. Right? Like, if you know, you say your truth and your message. But like what gets the engagement is the outrageous comments, right? Right. Calling you a spy or calling you a sellout or calling you an apology, whatever it is.
00:45:49:20 - 00:46:09:15
Right. that's what's going to get people excited and, you know, you're strong enough to like, stay the, the pressure. But many of these people, you know, they, they for the engagement they have to create these, you know, insane, and crazy, statements, which is just pushes us further away from, 1,000%, a thousand.
00:46:09:21 - 00:46:29:08
But I want to also tell you that, again, I stand by my comment about the opportunity and the potential that I see for myself trying to bring people together. And I'm going to tell you an example from last night, which was really intense, but it was I did, because I have a significant following on Twitter right now, and I have never done my own, like Twitter spaces.
00:46:29:08 - 00:46:58:21
I've gone to other people's spaces and I've spoken, but I did my own space and God is my witness. Man, I think that was the first space that I have ever seen a large number of. And it was it was small. They were like 2000 people that tuned in, but like, it was the first space that I had seen pro-Israel and pro-Palestine people, actual Palestinians and Arabs and Muslims and actual Israelis and American Jews and diaspora Jews.
00:46:58:24 - 00:47:24:25
Now, they fought a lot. It was intense. It was ugly at times. But there were points that came through. and there were points that didn't come through. However, I saw it because I exercise a little bit of editorial control and like saying no name calling, no this like I am. I that will get better. Honestly, I saw people desperate to be heard.
00:47:25:01 - 00:47:45:04
That is genuinely the message that I came away from. I saw pro-Palestine and pro-Israel people with each other, desperate that the other side hear them. Yeah, and in so doing, unfortunately, some of them talked over each other. They yelled they this. So, like, this is what I need to do a better job and I'm learning how to like and I'm believe me, I am a good moderator.
00:47:45:04 - 00:48:13:15
I just didn't know the technology and the element of it, but like, it gave me hope. This is my whole raison d’etre. I want to be that bridge builder and that gap filler. I don't want to just talk to the pro-Israel people or the pro-Palestine folks. But let me bring you back to this central theme that I heard over and over and over in this space in a comment before, people kept yelling and screaming at me, why are you talking to the Zionists?
00:48:13:15 - 00:48:33:02
Why are you talking to the pro-Israel people? They don't see you as a human being. They're using you as hasbara, right? They're this they're that. Their plea with me was, don't— literally, don't try to be reasonable with these people. I was like, these people. Don't try to talk to them. Do not engage. Do not normalize them. You need to boycott.
00:48:33:03 - 00:49:09:00
You need to separate. You need to stay away. And that is unfortunately the dominant narrative right now. The dominant messages like, I can't sit with you or somebody online or somebody in a virtual space and talk. And I don't know, for me personally, I find that really offensive. I find that really problematic. I find that infantilizing. Like somehow, they think that just talking to pro-Israel people with whom I disagree, I disagree with some of the pro-Israel people were some of them were telling me, like, you can't call it the West Bank because it's Judea and Samaria, whatever.
00:49:09:02 - 00:49:26:05
And I was like, well, guess what? Palestinians are they're— Regardless, why can't I talk to this guy? Why can't I tell him what the Palestinians think? Which is they don't care, honestly, what you call it. Judea, Samaria, it's the West Bank. They live there and they're facing injustices and they're being pushed out by these settlers. And like, that's not cool.
00:49:26:05 - 00:49:50:11
Like, that doesn't make Israel safer. Like, why is that bad? Why is that offensive? Why is it that I told the space yesterday that this is not some video game thing for me? This they were talking about Palestinian hostages and Ahmed, you don't know. And I was like, actually, I do know. Let me tell you, this thing: my brother, my sister in law's brother was captured by the Israeli military in Khan Yunis in the south, and we haven't heard a thing about him in three months.
00:49:50:12 - 00:50:10:16
We don't know if he's alive or if he's dead. And he was arbitrarily taken. The tank surrounded the Hamad City and Khan Yunis, and they separated the women and children and let them go. And all the men, carte blanche. Over 1200 men were just taken. And we haven't heard anything from him since. So, like, yeah, I believe that he's unfairly detained.
00:50:10:16 - 00:50:26:10
I know the guy very well. He's got nothing to do with Hamas. And they were like, yeah, you, see? Okay, fine, fine. So, they were like, okay, fine, you know what you thought, but he's a hostage. And why do you care about Israelis? I was like that woman or child that was taken on October 7th. Has nothing to do.
00:50:26:10 - 00:50:57:20
Did nothing to Ali to be captured. So, like give me a break. Like it's not a one for tat. And I use this English, this Arabic word from Islam and to use some Koranic verses. Translated, it’s basically, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because somebody did a did a wrong, it doesn't mean you go do a wrong and justify it with that wrong.
00:50:57:20 - 00:51:45:06
So, like it was so again, once again, when I approach it with rationality, with the standing, with I know Islam, I memorized five chapters of the Koran. The Koran has seven chapters. Seven is that, 114 surahs. But I memorized five of it, like, I know this stuff, like I studied it. I'm not saying I'm a mister know-it-all, but honestly, it was so interesting to see, like, how I could occupy a space as somebody who is from Gaza and Palestinian and is ultimately pro-Palestine and, and anti the military occupation but through being pro-peace and coexistence anti-Hamas and the armed resistance narrative and pro like engagement and
00:51:45:06 - 00:52:05:26
dialogue, and have alliances with the Jewish community. Like just to see that in real time with thousands of people at once. Just I was hopeful. People thought this was a great space. Their feedback was that we just need to shut people out, those who call names or whatever. But I see it. I see the opportunity; I see the possibility.
00:52:06:03 - 00:52:29:14
And I'm saying this with excitement and with optimism, that there's a there is the space that I want to occupy is both of these people. They want to be heard by the other. There is a path forward, but the main organizations, whether they be Jewish or the Muslim organizations or the pro-Palestine organizations, the main influencers like, they're not going to do it.
00:52:29:16 - 00:53:11:21
It's going to take somebody scrappy, like myself from the Bay area out of their bedroom, basically doing this and establishing a third way, a third model, a third narrative and a new space. and I see it happening. Is it going to immediately change the space? Absolutely not. But I think I can have with this, with this idea, with this approach at disproportionately positive impact, because if a Gazan who's— half of his family is literally dead, whose mom is homeless, whose brother is homeless, who's deaf in his left ear from an IDF bombing that almost killed me, who has skin in the game, who has connected with U.S. officials and Israeli hostages?
00:53:11:23 - 00:53:42:25
Like the totality of my lived experience and my standing uniquely, almost singularly positions me to be able to kind of to talk to both sides. And when somebody wants to attack me, I can shut them up politely and diplomatically and kindly. And I'll close with this. There was this comment that, like somebody said, like people yesterday I had I had, shared a piece of feedback about some, some someone's comment online and like, like some Israeli influencer.
00:53:42:25 - 00:54:15:06
And I thought their statement was not particularly helpful. And I said, I'm really disappointed that this is the statement that so-and-so did. Here's why I disagree with it. And some pro-Palestine folks, several of them were viciously mocking me, saying, why are you so weird? Why is this, like, diplomatic, you know, tone of yours? Like you're. And then another guy was like, Ahmed is the type of guy that if you punch him in the bar or in a street or in a restaurant, he'll tell you how really disappointed he is that you punched him and why you shouldn't do that.
00:54:15:08 - 00:54:35:02
I was like, oh my God, that's actually a compliment. Thank you. Like, yes, I want to resemble that. I want to create that ability. I want to create that engagement model that doesn't go to, I'm going to punch you right back, or I'm going to kill you. And I'm going to just disagree with you. It's so interesting that you bring that up because it's, what I'm hearing is very similar to a lot of criticism within Israel.
00:54:35:02 - 00:54:55:28
Of course, when it comes to people who are willing to engage with Palestinians and with people who are from, you know, from outside of the Israeli kind of the, you know, the more mainstream conversation. Right. And it's and I wonder this is more of a question and I mean, this is more of a curiosity less. And it's, it's I mean, it's part of this conversation for sure, is that it's critiqued as like a like that is Christian.
00:54:55:28 - 00:55:30:11
Right. Turning the other cheek kind of approach. Right. So, a lot of like more ultranationalist Israelis who are leaning on, you know, a very specific interpretation of Jewish approaches will say, well, that's a Christian or a non-Jewish, ethic. instead of, you know, of morality and ethics. And it kind of sounds, in a way, there's a similar critique here of saying, you know, you've been westernized in a way that you're internalizing an approach that's foreign to, you know, our own, kind of upbringing.
00:55:30:11 - 00:55:46:25
And I and I can't imagine. It's so interesting as, as you're speaking, I'm like, running through things, you know, because of my background, because of where I come from. I'm almost conditioned to, like, say, but yeah, but what about this? You know, like, Islam's like, but I'm like, wait a second.
00:55:46:25 - 00:56:03:06
That statement is the same statement the people say about Judaism. I'm like, that's not true. That's a specific interpretation of Judaism that I don't stand by. And so, I'm like holding myself accountable, because I know that if I, if I were to say, well, Ahmed, what about, you know, and the Koran says A, B and C, you'd be like, yeah, sure.
00:56:03:06 - 00:56:31:05
But that's been written off minimalize, you know, or whatever yet, you know, it's out of totality. So, what I'm trying to ask, I guess, is how much of this, you know, kind of, critique that you're feeling, in this moment in some of its variations, is, reflective of a specific outlook of, what it means to be Palestinian, what it means to be Muslim.
00:56:31:07 - 00:57:01:14
And how much of it is, is maybe more, I'm trying to think, like, what's the good counter example of that is more not it's not more, critical of like the, the statement itself and much more about the sentiment. That makes sense. Certainly. So, I mean, what I'll be honest with you is that I the problem is so many people, when I talk to them, they're not really listening.
00:57:01:14 - 00:57:21:14
They're already preparing a counter argument and a counter response. And what was so frustrating yesterday in the space, we literally called it let's talk about the war in the hostage family’s folks were telling me about, like, exactly like the verses from the Koran people. I wasn't in this space. I promise, I swear, I swear. But it was like.
00:57:21:17 - 00:57:40:23
And they were like, oh, well, it wasn't called. Someone try to say that, like, oh, well, it's actually not like it couldn't have been Palestine because there's no P in Arabic. Like this is a point that and I'm like, yeah, yeah. But they call even in Hebrew calling for listening. Like P is like it was just like guys, why are we going for that back?
00:57:40:23 - 00:58:01:11
Like, like and the Palestinians were doing the same and some of them were like, Jesus was a Palestinian and he wasn't a Jew and he wasn't a this. And he wasn't at that. The main thing that I keep telling people is, and I'm going to this American University, conference in a couple of months, it's called Israel 2048 Israel at 100.
00:58:01:11 - 00:58:19:00
And I'm a keynote speaker as the Palestinian giving a vision. It's a forward looking. This is my reason that I want to be forward looking. I want us to work through this. I want us to be forward looking. We are here both to stay the Jews and the Israelis and the Palestinians. This is not Kumbaya. This is pragmatism.
00:58:19:00 - 00:58:45:04
This is brass tax. And so, I'm sick of this idea that in order to solve this, I need to go to the Hebron massacre in the 1920s or the, you know, the Balfour Declaration. I know about the Balfour Declaration like we used to have a holiday in Gaza and but for the Balfour Declaration of a holiday of mourning, what are we going to what does Palestinian identity, what does Palestinian statehood look like?
00:58:45:08 - 00:59:06:29
How does that interact with our Jewish neighbors and our Jewish inhabitants? If we want to incorporate having some of the settlers, for example, I think they should be offered Palestinian citizenship and they should be part of a Palestinian state in the West Bank. And I think there should be easy access and not easy open access to Jerusalem and some of the other holy sites for the Jewish people, as well as for the Palestinians.
00:59:07:02 - 00:59:31:03
Even if East Jerusalem is part of a future Palestinian state. So, I try to bring it back to that. And there's just this, like, reflexive, well, what about what happened in 19— that the Appeal Committee of 1937 six and now what about this and what about that? So, there's disparity in the power dynamics with one side, I think, holding more power than the other.
00:59:31:03 - 00:59:57:07
However, there's very much so both side ism to this, in the sense that both sides regularly engage in similar trends of dehumanization. And what about ism? And let me dig down the history books and tell you why you're right or you're wrong. And like the other day, it was like a pallet and an Israeli, a pro-Palestine person, showed pictures of, oh, look at these really children being shown guns.
00:59:57:09 - 01:00:19:09
And B and, and they were like at a war museum. And they have like all these Israeli children at a in front of tanks and guns and whatever. And like they're taught to hate the Palestinians from an early age. And as soon as I saw that, I was like, oh my God, you know what's going to happen? A pro-Israel guy is going to come and show the despicable kindergarten graduation ceremonies that Hamas was doing in Gaza.
01:00:19:13 - 01:00:42:01
And sure, as how you go down and like it was just like, oh, will you show your kids how to hate the Jews and the Islam is anti-Semitic? So, this and the same is true with going back to the hostage families. I want Palestinian prisoners that are unfairly detained and arbitrarily detention and administrative detention to be released.
01:00:42:04 - 01:01:03:01
But it's not a one for one tit for tat. Oh, well, they need to be released because they're hostages and therefore we're justified in holding Israeli hostages like that is unfair. That is wrong. That is immoral. Women, Israeli women and children should have never been touched or taken, should have never been held this long. They should have been unconditionally released.
01:01:03:03 - 01:01:17:29
And the sad reality is, I know that Hamas is a ruthless, despicable player and they will not be unconditionally released. Yeah, I want to conditionally I want to say something here is important because our audiences are going to be, they're going to be— I don't know if up in arms as in, you know, I don't know, actually.
01:01:18:00 - 01:01:38:03
No, I don't know. We'll find out. But I think it's worthwhile because we've repeated this several times. Now, you make a clear distinction between the soldiers who are being held captive and, and the women and children and, I mean, I have my own assumptions into why you're making that distinction, but I'd much rather hear what you know, how you were thinking about this.
01:01:38:05 - 01:01:59:23
Because this is a space to have these conversations and, and if I, if I and if we cannot model that, then there really isn't hope. Right. And so, I think it's worthwhile taking a moment because our listeners are going to pay attention to that. And I think it's worthwhile naming it and we'll see how that evolves.
01:01:59:23 - 01:02:20:18
But I, I have a feeling that I know, or maybe I may be wrong. I don't know, certainly. So, number one is to me it is non-negotiable, completely despicable, sick, evil to touch women and children and the elderly of both sexes and to hold them as hostages. They should have never been taken. It was immoral. It was bad.
01:02:20:18 - 01:02:42:02
It was an ineffective strategy. And so, to me, let's get that out of the way. I always say that to get it out of the way. The sad reality is there are people that don't agree with this assessment very regretfully and sadly. So, like part of the distinction is to force these people into having to make this ethical and moral decision.
01:02:42:02 - 01:02:57:24
I want to impose a moral dilemma upon them and say, are you really okay? And they're going to come back and say, oh, well, Palestinian children get like— it's not a one for one. It's not a tit for tat. Talk to me about us. Who are we as a people? What is our moral ethic? What is our law?
01:02:57:24 - 01:03:19:12
What is our whether it be inspired by our own culture, our religion, our background, our social values? Do we as a society want to go down the path of justified no matter what the other side does? Do we ever want to be in a situation where we're justifying the taking of women and children, even female soldiers, and how they were captured?
01:03:19:12 - 01:03:45:19
I thought that was evil. That was wrong. The Palestinian culture and Muslim societies normally have immense respect for female spaces, for women, for boundaries, physical and otherwise, around women. So, I make that distinction to force people who are still thinking the hostage taking on October 7th was a valid act of resistance into like, wake up, this is what you're supporting.
01:03:45:19 - 01:04:10:20
So that's number one. Number two is I was with the father of an Israeli soldier, and I absolutely want Yehuda’s son to be released, a 19-year-old. So, like that goes without saying. However, from just a realistic, pragmatic point of view in war and in conflict, soldiers get killed or captured. We see it in Russia and between Russia and Ukraine.
01:04:10:23 - 01:04:34:04
We see it with a lot of the people that are being captured in Gaza. Does that mean I want them to be held in captivity in dungeons and Gaza? Absolutely not. But I'm saying I can at least try to work with that from a hostage negotiation point of view and saying these guys were in tanks, they were in armored vehicles, and they're part of a military apparatus.
01:04:34:10 - 01:04:59:17
So, it's at least potentially a one-for-one comparison in war time. In the same way, by the way, that a lot of Israeli folks or pro-Israel folks will say, oh, well, war is hell and people civilians die in war. Like, I don't necessarily think they're justifying. Like when I talk about the death of my family, they're not exactly justifying the killing of my family members by the IDF bombardment of 31 people, including children as young as three and four months old.
01:04:59:20 - 01:05:27:19
But they're like, yeah, this happens in war, war is horrible. Similarly, like soldiers being killed or captured in war, that happens. However, the manner in which they were taken alongside with civilians, the way in which this was done as part of a broader horrendous massacre, and a real genocidal attack against civilians and people, it was killing for the sake of killing.
01:05:27:19 - 01:05:53:20
It was not a military operation. It was not a targeted attack. So that's where I draw those distinctions. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, that's actually exactly what I thought you're going to say. because I know you and because we've had these conversations. But I think it's important to clarify those two points because, you know, I, you know, for many people, you know, who are and again, this is everybody who's involved emotionally in this.
01:05:53:22 - 01:06:18:04
It's very difficult. You know, I come from — me, Amitai, when I look at the world, I'm like you in many ways: very pragmatic and very cerebral and kind of trying to not eliminate, not diminish, not minimize the emotional component. But it's very difficult to make decisions in that perspective, especially when there is such like an immeasurable emotional toll that's attached to this.
01:06:18:04 - 01:06:39:07
Right. And so, you know, when I walk through the categories and talk about kind of how this, this whole thing, war on all sides of it is a travesty, like I can I immediately knew that. That's like the distinction that you're going to right now. God forbid that you're going to justify this or the other, or you're saying that this is okay, and that's fine.
01:06:39:07 - 01:06:59:01
And, you know, that was very helpful to hear that, you know, so it's not just living in my own head. But you stating saying it helps for the audience to hear, it's pushing people to make a decision, right, by isolating this group. And also, this needs to end. And also, this is a pragmatic way forward.
01:06:59:01 - 01:07:20:11
And that, you know, brings back to this comment that you said earlier that I, I remember my moment of when I had this moment of “aha”, you know, history versus you know, well, what about this, what about that? It happened to me twice. Once, in high school, at the height of the second Intifada, I was talking to my friend, and I'm like, this whole attempt to try and explain and justify our existence here based on some historical story.
01:07:20:14 - 01:07:41:25
Right. It's very, very powerful internally because it's our narrative-building and our identity-building formation, etc. but if someone doesn't buy that same story, it's totally useless. Certainly, that was point number one. And then the application of it. When I was in the rabbinic delegation when I was in rabbinical school, I went and we met with, in East Jerusalem.
01:07:41:25 - 01:08:08:02
We met with, this is so long ago already, I don't know, ten years ago, more than 15 years ago. He was one of the lead Palestinian negotiators, Saeb. Yes. And he was like. And he was sitting there and I remember he was like, yes, the Jewish people have been here for thousands of years.
01:08:08:04 - 01:08:31:25
I don't know. We are from Canaan, you know, we're the original Canaanites. And my peers were like, oh, he recognized the Jewish—But I'm like, but that's just a continuation of —like that's not helpful. Right. It's not helpful to continue like dig back in the history until the paleolithic, you know, you know, whatever period of, you know, whose ancestors— the we're part of the same…
01:08:31:25 - 01:08:51:25
You know, we've been here for forever when we still have to figure out how to live here, here being in that region and, in Palestine and in Israel and, and figuring it out. And, like, stop looking backwards or trying to determine the future and how heavy your bag is from the, from the past. But really, just like looking forward and you know, what is what is you know, the path?
01:08:51:25 - 01:09:12:12
And I think this is an interesting, you know, self-reflection also moment here. You know, also imagine for yourself in a way. Right. Like we're both we're both in a diaspora. And often, you know, when we're asked about, you know, where do we want to live, how do we think about, you know, where do we want to, end up?
01:09:12:14 - 01:09:41:21
It's always a question. One way to look at it is a question between, like choosing our past right and our future, or our kids’ future. And that doesn't necessarily make my answer easier one way or the other. That's a way to look at it. And I think that, similarly, if we if we, apply that in a broader sense of like, how do we stop trying to stack up atrocities or historical facts and say, yes, okay, that's all interesting and fascinating.
01:09:41:21 - 01:10:06:15
We leave that to the academics, but we're here today. How do we move forward? Precisely. Agreed. And to your point about the diaspora, I'm working on a piece right now. Like what is the and I'm focusing on the like the pro-Palestine side. What is the responsibility of the diaspora community? I understand I can understand someone in Gaza who is living through the day-to-day misery even before October 7th, through the challenges or trying to provide for your family.
01:10:06:15 - 01:10:36:24
I can understand folks in the West Bank who similarly are going through day-to-day life and have a hard time thinking about big picture, stepping back from dealing with the settlements, dealing with the occupation as expressed by the checkpoints, and the humiliation that people experience. Fine, I can't, I get that like they might have a hard time, but it is incumbent upon good leadership and the diaspora communities to empower those people to be a helping hand, to think with them.
01:10:36:27 - 01:11:01:26
It's like if your friend is drunk, you take away the keys. Like, you don't just let them. Like, if we're seeing our community make mistakes over and over, and those mistakes are getting our people killed, more land seized, there's no result, resolution, insight. We have a responsibility. And I honestly feel like the Jewish diaspora has been an immense ally to the Israeli people.
01:11:01:29 - 01:11:25:00
And I wish that the Palestinian people, particularly in the United States and the Western world, would almost model that and mirror that. And instead, we have lawyers and doctors and engineers and NASA scientists and like some of the smartest people in the country, not wanting to come hear me because they're like, oh, we looked this guy up and we think he's a Zionist sellout.
01:11:25:02 - 01:11:45:29
Like, are you kidding me? If this is how the smart folks in the diaspora, and these are the people that are educated with immense wealth and resources— People regularly complain about AIPAC. Where's the Palestinian? I call it PAPAC. Palestinian American Political Action Committee. Like where's the Palestinian equivalent of AIPAC? Like, I'm sick of hearing about AIPAC.
01:11:45:29 - 01:12:12:17
I want to hear about how are we, as a Palestinian community, A) helping our brothers and sisters back home by developing a realistic, pragmatic political vision. But B) the United States gives Israel billions of dollars. The United States benefits economically, politically. Intel your microprocessors, the military technologies. You name it. Israel and the United States are joined at the hip from technological advancements and trailblazing.
01:12:12:19 - 01:12:41:22
That is what Israel brings to the table, in terms of the alliance and the relationship to the United States. What do we envision Palestine bringing to the table as part of, if we want to shift some of that or create more balance in the US-Israel relationship and have more space for the Palestinian people and for acknowledging the Palestinian rights and supporting it beyond just providing aid to UNWRA or aid to the Palestinian Authority or humanitarian aid to Gaza.
01:12:41:26 - 01:13:22:17
What does Palestine bring to the table, and how do we frame that in a way that actually is compelling to policymakers, is compelling to industry, is compelling, that we're never going to go head-to-head with Israel from their technological advancement, or at least not for generations. But how do we, for example, and I have a partial answer to that, which is that in an era where we have Iran, the Islamic Republic and China vying for influence and control and to a lesser extent, Russia in the Middle East, we, the Palestine is the key to sustain us allyship with most of the region to counter China and Iran by the.
01:13:22:19 - 01:13:39:23
Yeah, by the way, that's what Israel brings to the table. The other stuff, the technological advances. That's relatively new. Right. But Israel for a while had to play both sides. You know, for the first several decades of the country. Right. It was with Russia, was the US, it was with the Soviet Union. It was, you know, and more and more that's helping the Saudis, right?
01:13:39:23 - 01:14:09:13
It's like it's a so it's like it's picking a side basically and saying, are we with the West? Right. Precisely. Or are we not? Now I think we can do that even alongside Israel, of course, all the more so, like the Palestinians should be in alliance Israel. Yeah. Against Iran, which has occupied four Arab capitals Baghdad, Damascus, Beirut and Sanaa and Yemen, like four Arab countries plus Gaza have been ruined due to Iranian influence and the Iranian meddling and to violence.
01:14:09:13 - 01:14:41:25
I mean, Iran has the Islamic Republic has killed more Arab Sunnis than any other than Israel could do in generations or has gotten them motivated to. But yeah, so, so like to me, solving Israel and Palestine is the key to lasting relationships and durable peace with the Arab and Sunni nations to create a kind of a strong, robust alliance against the Islamic Republic, which is weeks away from being able to have a nuclear bomb.
01:14:41:25 - 01:15:13:07
Can you imagine a nuclear Iran and how that will require that entire region coming together to contain them? I mean, look at North Korea and how isolated they are and how much of a trouble they are to South Korea and Japan and the Philippines and all that. Imagine a nuclear Iran and what it does to Israel and the Arabs and the Sunni nations that requires stability, peace and justice in Israel and Palestine and Israel, Palestine, but in Palestine in particular, so to me, that's what Palestine brings to the table politically.
01:15:13:08 - 01:15:41:14
But I my sense is that's a prerequisite, not an end result. In other words, people were saying the critique of the Saudi normalization, even within the, you know, narrowly the Israeli kind of conversation, was well, what about the Palestinians? Right. And I think that that was kind of like the case that Hamas made ultimately was like, we’ve got to end this because we're going to be getting the short end of the stick.
01:15:41:20 - 01:15:58:29
Yeah, yeah. So, then the question is, and how do we— and we're derailing this a little bit. I mean, this is fascinating. I want to do more of this. But what I'm trying to say is, I'm going to try to speak for my thoughts here, is that I think that first of all, I agree, and I think that that's the path forward is realizing that we're in it together as a community.
01:15:58:29 - 01:16:16:16
Yes, and yes. And the Palestinians and the Israelis, Jewish and non-Jewish, whatever. As a matter, we're tied at the hip, precise, and it's not going to be and we're not going to be at the end of the process. We have to be at the beginning of the process. Precisely. And what pains me is you have people burning the American flag, like disrespecting the United States in a way.
01:16:16:16 - 01:16:39:11
And I understand there's this feeling like, okay, fine, the United States is supporting Israel, etc., but we need to win over the legislators and the American public, and we need to work an alliance to create this idea that Palestine is good for U.S. interests. Palestine is meaningful from a geopolitical point of view, and Palestine can absolutely be effective economically and otherwise as a partner to the United States.
01:16:39:12 - 01:17:04:06
Like that's for the diaspora community. And again, instead, the diaspora community is calling me a Zionist sellout for just having this conversation. The diaspora community is just repeating those stupid chants and slogans that are completely worthless. They have no organization whatsoever that can pragmatically, without this idealistic or moralistic or ethical— That's not how foreign policy and geopolitics work.
01:17:04:10 - 01:17:24:09
Okay, this is why I'm frustrated. This is why I studied intelligence, national security, which, by the way, just for comic relief, people point out, it's on my LinkedIn. It's for the whole world to see. People point to that and say, I'm a spy, one day I'm Mossad, one day I'm a CIA asset, one day I'm MI6. And I'm not talking about trolls on Twitter.
01:17:24:13 - 01:17:50:10
I'm talking about like decorated tenured professors at Boston University and NYU and in Canada and McMaster University. I mean, the darlings of the pro-Palestine movement that are like, oh, yeah, this guy really is a plant. He's a fed. This guy. Oh, he's completely because, you know, plants and feds and CIA agents put their degrees on LinkedIn or how I don't know if I said this last time, but I hate taking pictures of myself, to be honest.
01:17:50:10 - 01:18:10:10
Like, I'm trying to do more of the Instagram video content. And I'm just like, I'm very uncomfortable looking at the camera like cameras looking at me. That's fine. But looking at the camera. So, I put a profile picture on Twitter. It was what it was like. It was from a year ago. It was a $50 whale-watching trip here in the San Francisco Bay.
01:18:10:12 - 01:18:34:14
You could tell from the picture; this is my Twitter profile picture. For a while, you could tell that I was at the edge of a boat, but it wasn't like a boat. It was a small boat, you know, and these smart professors turned it into the Jews. And the Zionists bought me a yacht. And I am paying the Jews and the Zionists back by— I'm offended you didn’t invite me— I did not.
01:18:34:15 - 01:19:06:27
So, 30 million. I'll pay for the coffee and a yacht trip. I'm raking it in, apparently. Like I said, I'm literally about to do a GoFundMe but so— And that to pay back the Jews and that. Yeah. And that I'm sailing around the world and tweeting crap about the pro-Palestine movement. I mean, again, we're not only talking about a dereliction of duty, but we're talking about an active attempt to sabotage what could otherwise be a powerful role for the Palestinian and the pro-Palestine in the Arab and Muslim diaspora.
01:19:07:00 - 01:19:27:13
To actually solve this, to actually help the very people on behalf of whom they claim to be angry. So, we have to and unfortunately, the same feeling that I had last episode of like, we need more of this. So, thank you again for joining us. Thank you. You know, a roller coaster of a conversation, ups and downs in terms of the emotional place.
01:19:27:13 - 01:19:52:06
We're smiling, we're laughing, we're heartbroken, and inspired. But, you know, as always, it's really, a breath of fresh air there to have this conversation be able to, to connect like this and hear about how you're building bridges, online and in person, which is incredibly important. And I just want to thank you for joining us again in this, installment of the Z3 Podcast.
01:19:52:10 - 01:20:02:23
Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it, brother. Thank you.
