What Are We Teaching Our Kids?

Education has stood at the core of every Jewish community since the High Priest Yehoshua Ben Gamla first made it mandatory in 65 CE. But are we doing it right? Are we giving them the knowledge and tools to live a fulfilling Jewish life and to develop a deep, layered, and lasting relationship with Israel and Israelis? In this panel, experts will ask whether our Jewish educational frameworks—from formal schooling to teacher training—are truly fulfilling the ancient call to educate our children.

About Our Moderator & Panelists:

Dr. Ezra Kopelowitz is a sociologist whose expertise is in Jewish education, community, and issues of collective Jewish belonging. He has published books and articles on these topics. He is the CEO of Research Success Technologies, a company specializing in research and evaluation for Jewish organizations and co-Director of the Center for Jewish Peoplehood Education (jpeoplehood.org). Ezra teaches a course on “Jewish Peoplehood for Jewish Professionals,” for the Spertus Institute’s (Chicago) MA program for Jewish Professional Studies. The course focuses on distilling core collective Jewish values that inform the work of Jewish professionals. Born in South Africa, Ezra moved to the United States as a child, living in Israel since 1990. Ezra lives in Kibbutz Hannaton, Israel. He is married to Debbie and has four children.

Hilla Drechler serves as the Director of the Zionist Enterprises Department. Prior to this role, she was a Senior Advisor to the Minister of Diaspora Affairs. Hilla spent over four years in New York, where she represented the WZO Education Department in North America (Shlicha). A skilled convener and connector, Hilla is dedicated to advancing Zionism, Jewish Peoplehood, and strengthening Israel-Diaspora relations through education and community building. She is the proud mother of Nadav and the partner of Benjamin. Hilla holds a BA in Political Science and Economics, an MA in Political Thought from Tel-Aviv University, and an MA in Israel Education from George Washington University.

Rabbi Dr. Laura Novak Winer, RJE, is the Director of the Master of Educational Leadership program at the HUC-JIR Rhea Hirsch School of Education in Los Angeles, CA. Laura teaches courses on pedagogy, classroom and organizational culture and leading change. She is a Senior Fellow at the Jack, Joseph and Morton Mandel Center for Studies in Jewish Education and Brandeis University. Laura has worked in and with a variety of afternoon school settings and her current research focus is Israel education, particularly within the context of the supplementary school. Laura has been published in a variety of academic and online journals, is a regular contributor to Moment Magazine’s “Ask the Rabbis” column, and was the editor of several curricula, including Sacred Choices: Adolescent Relationships and Sexual Ethics (2005 and 2007). She is a past president of the Association of Reform Jewish Educators. Laura earned her B.A. degree from the University of California, Santa Barbara; a Master of Arts in Jewish Education from the Rhea Hirsch School of Education and rabbinic ordination at HUC-JIR; and a doctorate in Education from the Jewish Theological Seminary Davidson School of Graduate Education.

Shalom Orzach is a senior educator and consultant for the iCenter and serves on faculty for the Foundation for Jewish Camp. Prior, he served as the AVI CHAI Project Director and Director of Education in the Shlichut and Israel Fellows unit for the Jewish Agency. Shalom was the Central Shaliach for USY. He was also a scholar on the prestigious Jerusalem Fellows Program, following which he was the Executive Director for Jewish Renewal at the UJIA in England. Shalom is an acclaimed public speaker on contemporary Israel who brings extensive knowledge, humor and passion. He recently served as a month-long scholar for United Synagogue in Chicago and at the Park Avenue Synagogue in New York. He has published articles on Israel and Jewish education in The Times of Israel and eJewishPhilanthropy. For the anniversary of October 7th, his book Telling Times, a weekly exploration of the Torah Portion in the context of its modern day echoes, was published.

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Video Transcript

Hilla Drechler: So good afternoon, everyone. Thank you, Sharona, for this wonderful opening, right? To talk to one another. It's a start up. My name is Hilla Drechler, and I currently serve as the director of the Zionist Enterprises Department at the World Zionist Organization. I know we're going to need to change our name.

I know I didn't choose it. In this role, we partner with various organizations to bring programming to leaders. communities, and educators around the world, connecting them with Israel, Zionist ideas, and strong Jewish identity while addressing the needs of the hour. Previously, I was the representative for the education department in North America.

I guess that's why they asked me to moderate this panel. And in all of my roles, I've been, uh, deeply involved in Jewish and Israel education. Education is the key to building a strong communal and individual identity. It has always been central in Jewish communities, but are we doing it right? Are we giving them, our kids, the knowledge and tools to live a fulfilling Jewish life and to develop a deep, layered relationship with Israel and Israelis?

In other words, What is Jewish education all about, what should be the ever changing components depending on the current journey of us as the Jewish people? And maybe just, a brief comment. We will refer, of course, to October 7. We continue to face the painful reality of 101 Israelis hostages being held in Gaza for over a year, the ongoing war in Israel, and other domestic challenges.

As well as rising levels of anti Semitism and anti Zionism worldwide. For me, and I'm sure for many of us, the impact of October 7th continues to shape our reality, and we face its, consequences every day, as a community, as individuals, and as a people. So The topic of this panel is always relevant, but it feels even more pressing today.

It's truly an honor to moderate this panel with distinguished experts who bring unique perspective from formal and informal education, research, and behind. Together, they will help us explore these big, fundamental questions. So let me introduce them. The, Rabbi Dr. Laura Novek.

Reiner. Reiner. Thank you. He's the director of the Master of Educational Leadership Program at the HUC JIR Rea Hirsch School of Education in Los Angeles, California. She is a senior fellow at the Jack Joseph and Morton Mandel Center for Studies in Jewish Education and Brandeis University. Laura has worked in and with a variety of afternoon school settings and her current research focus is.

The focus is Israel education, particularly within the context of the supplementary school. Dr. Ezra Kopelovich is the sociologist whose expertise is in Jewish education, community and issues of collective Jewish belonging. He has published books and articles on these topics. He is the CEO of Research Success Technologies, a company specializing in research and evaluation for Jewish organizations.

And co director of the Center for Jewish People with Education. Shalom Orzach is a senior educator and consultant for the ICE Center and serves on faculty for the Foundation for Jewish Camp. Shalom is in, I don't know how to say this word. Acclimate?

Shalom Orzach: Acclaimed.

Hilla Drechler: Acclaimed.

Acclaimed, apparently. I'm sorry.

Yeah. I know I didn't notice that I'm in Israel.

Shalom Orzach: They'll tell you afterwards whether you're no, because I know it's a very important

word, but I wanted to say it. I tried. I promise.

I think my mother must have written it.

Hilla Drechler: Well, you said it. Public speaker. Public speaker on contemporary Israel who brings extensive knowledge, humor, and passion. For the anniversary of October 7th, his book Telling Times a weekly exploration of the third portion in the context of its modern day echoes was published. So let's start with the first question, just like a small one.

Actually, it's a very broad question just to see where we land. So from your profession, professional and personal perspective and experience. What are the most important components of Jewish education nowadays? Or, maybe to put it in, in another way, what would you consider to be a successful Jewish education?

Rabbi Dr. Laura Novak Winer:

Hilla Drechler: Laura, let's start with you.

Rabbi Dr. Laura Novak Winer: Just a small question. There are lots of different answers to this question, and part of what you're getting behind is what's the purpose? of Jewish education, and I like to answer this question in this way. I think that we, need to help Jews of all ages understand how to live their lives and find guidance in Judaism and how to do that.

Jewish education offers them the opportunity To, both learn about what Judaism says about how to live a Jewish life and to interact with that and make, this is me as a reform rabbi talking, make decisions for themselves about what does that look like in their lives.

Dr. Ezra Kopelowitz: I'll need more time. So a variation of that is first, it's really important not to think of education as an isolated process where you walk into a classroom and you learn something. Rather education is part of our lives. It's moments where you acquire knowledge and you reflect on it, but it's embedded in the life that you're living.

So it gives you the ability, to make decisions and see the world through a Jewish lens. so I'll begin with what's the problem. the state we don't want is a state where being Jewish is isolated to going to a museum, or to a celebration or a festival, and then you walk out the building and you go back to your life.

In other words, you don't want a situation where being Jewish is something siloed. It needs to be integrated into one slide, and that's, I've been very inspired over the course of my career, where you have just exceptional institutions. one of the best books I've read in our field is Jeff Kress book on pluralistic Jewish day schools, where he talks about a child can go through schools, and he has best case studies, three schools which he studied.

Where you have an accumulation of experiences that are in and around the core values of the institution. From a young age, could be all the way through twelfth grade. The faculty speak to each other, so there's core values. And you get those values all the time. And all the time you're speaking with, whether it's, it could be a Shabbaton, it could be in a Jewish history class.

it could be on participating in a march in Washington, or whatever it be, but the school's always talking, and so you begin to see the world through a Jewish lens. And that kind of immersive experience, which over time you begin to think of yourself as part of the Jewish people, because you are.

That's how you're living your life. it happens in the best of summer camps. It happens in the best of youth movements. and on the other end of the spectrum, you have many Jewish institutions, which unfortunately are the majority. where the Jewish component is siloed. In other words, it's a Jewish studies class.

And then everything else is, you've got math, and you've got science, and all the things you need to do to succeed for college. Or it's a supplementary school, in which it's prim mostly temporary education, people who aren't full time, who don't speak to one another about the values of the institution. And so each class is a silent experience, and it's not talking to each other.

So it's an issue of integration, and really actually being, continually speaking the same language, with people who you care about, with all the people who you admire. And to slowly begin to actually see the world as a Jew. and that's what Jewish education should be.

Shalom Orzach: So I have, the possibility to say yes, and then get away with it, but I'm not going to do that.

because how could I, I want to underscore what has already been said, but maybe take us in a few additional directions. I'm thinking a lot about some of the texts that we say often, but in our present reality have profoundly new meanings. something we say every day in terms of an educational paradigm, is v'shinantam levanecha.

I'm not sure how to translate that, and I'm being both. It's sort of insincere and sincere that you would think that if the object here is education, then perhaps it's v'Limadetam, you should teach, or you give a curriculum, whatever. The word leshanen, I think, means much more to practice. Practice makes perfect.

We need to develop, not just curriculum, but spaces in which I am constantly able to practice what it means to be Jewish today. what does it mean to be a Jewish citizen or a citizen of the Jewish people in 2024? And citizenship in my mind is not geographic. I am reminded of two remarkable teachers that I'm sure influenced all of our lives.

Mike Rosenak, Zichronot Ivrachah. would constantly say, and a master of education would constantly bring us down to earth by saying, this is what we do. That simplicity, that crystal clear idea of being Jewish implies na'aseh v'nishma . It is providing those spaces where I am constantly learning by experiencing and doing.

That provides, for me at least, a sense of fluency. Not fluency in a semantic sense, but fluency in a comfort sense. I know what is going on. I am in a circle re experiencing experiences that reinforce, question, challenge, and hopefully also hold where and who I am at any given moment.

That fluency is critical at the moment, I think. The other great teacher, and I'll try and be brief. I find that really difficult. Jonathan Sachs, Zichrono Livracha. speaks endlessly of the core purpose of being who we are. And that is the ability to unapologetically, I'll add that phrase to what he argues, but I'm sure he meant it, tell our story.

Not only tell our story, but become part of our story. And that, for me, is the Israel part of Jewish education. Not a separate aspect, but an integral aspect. It is a space that provides another gateway into fluency that also speaks to language, culture, intellectual rigor, and a deep awareness of who I am.

And need to be achieved through practice over and over and over again of key fundamental foundational events that remind me at any occasion, how do I tell the time? I tell the time through the story I read last week. And I tell the time to the story I'm going to tell this week. Just so happens that we have some crazy stories.

If I don't know them, if I cannot tell them, if I cannot struggle with them and argue with them, especially in these times, I'm introduced to a story about kidnapping? Now? How do I read that? That's a moment of Jewish education par excellence. Let's invite ourselves back in.

Hilla Drechler: Thank you. So, maybe just to follow up everything you just said, and go a little bit more deeper, and, put it in current times and what's going on.

if you can try and recognize that the challenges, as well as the opportunities, We have in Jewish education and the Jewish education field and Israel education. I mean for me at least the Jewish education in Israel education is going together. I feel that here the three it's kind of obvious But if you want to say something of this, of course, feel free So, So what are the challenges the opportunities in both Jewish education and Israel education?

especially Since October 7 during the last year or so, maybe now we just, mainly put them on out front. We don't need to try to answer how to deal with them. We'll wait with this a little bit longer. who wants to start?

Dr. Ezra Kopelowitz: I love the there's a good conversation here to develop.

So the, the biggest challenge in Jewish education is relevance, right? That someone actually cares. Once, once a child or an adult or a young adult cares, then you have an open invitation to engage in conversation. October 7th, and the reason why it's so traumatic for many Jews, is that it forces you to care.

So as Jews, we share, we share, memory, we share associations, we share objects, the Sefer Torah, right? You walk into a synagogue, you expect to see a Sefer Torah. How people handle that Sefer Torah, where it's sitting, already you know what kind of synagogue you're in. No Jew, maybe, no Jew would put a match to a Sefer Torah, even if they're a real atheist.

Israel has a similar type of, space in our consciousness, it's not another country. And even a very assimilated Jew treats Israel as different. and, but, most Jews who are not very involved in the Jewish community aren't really kind of coming Sefer Torah and the depth of wisdom that you just touched.

And they're not thinking very much about Israel. And what October 7th did, is all of a sudden this place far away was inserted into our lives, through the intensity of the events there, through the way the media was handling it, through what's going on in social networks, for the fact that my non Jewish friend comes up to me, and I'm a teenager now, in a public school, and says, you're Jewish, tell me what's going on in Israel, what do you think?

And they're not coming at you from a hostile place, it's from a place of curiosity. What do I know? And then, to add the fact that there might also be people who are being hostile, in other words, it's a place of trauma for most Jews. It's not a place of coming at a place with curiosity, but it's being forced on you.

But that's the opportunity. In other words, it's a tremendous trauma, a tremendous crisis, but because it's an existential crisis in which Jews experience being an other. experience being different from the culture around them. Understand that they have certain types of associations that have to do with thousands of years of persecution, thousands of years of this biblical land that was reborn, and they're being exposed to all kinds of stories about this miracle of, you know, the creation of the state of Israel.

there's like trauma coming out of the Middle East. What do I do with this? And so the opportunity is for educators to be able to engage people with questions and associations in conversation with other Jews. And that's the beginning of Jewish education where people have a desire to speak about things that are Jewish with other Jews.

And if that can be built upon, that's the that's the secret to success. So in many ways, October 7th is a tremendous opportunity, and Zach talked about the surge this morning. I'll stop there.

Rabbi Dr. Laura Novak Winer: I'm going to speak to challenges specifically around Israel education, because we have, we could be here all day talking about Israel around challenges and opportunities around Jewish education.

so I think that, our current paradigms of Israel education have been hampered by a number of limiting assumptions, and I think that these assumptions existed well before October 7th, and now they are just amplified, and they are much more urgent for us to address. So what's a limiting assumption?

A limiting assumption is a belief that is restrictive, that is untested, and yet held as truth. it's restrictive, untested, and held as truth. And so a limiting assumption prevents us from seeing new opportunities because we live within that narrow frame, or prevent us from seeing how we're missing the mark.

So, I think that we have four limiting, at least four limiting assumptions around Israel education right now. Um, and like I said, I think that these have existed prior. First is, Jews need to love Israel before being critical of Israel. the second is that young children do not have the capacity to understand the nuance and complexity of Israel.

Dr. Sivan Zakai, my colleague, has shown us that that actually She has tested that assumption and proven it to not be true, right? if you haven't read her research or heard about her research on this, the book is called My Second Favorite Country by Dr. Sivan Zakai. the third assumption, which is related to the first, is To be critical of Israel is to not love Israel.

So on the one hand, you have to love Israel in order to be critical, but on the other hand, if you're critical, you can't love Israel. You're not loving Israel. and the fourth assumption is that it is essential for American Jews to love Israel. so I think those are very strongly held limiting assumptions and they're preventing us from Opening our way of thinking about Israel education and thinking about what the, at least here in America, the American Jewish community needs.

So where's the opportunity? someone once said, I'm not exactly sure who gets attribution for the quote, but, the quote is, "your assumptions are windows onto the world. Scrub them off every once in a while or light won't come in." So I think the opportunity is for us to actually scrub off the windows of these assumptions and begin to think, rethink, and reimagine what Israel education actually is.

And should be aimed towards, and I'll stop there for now.

Hilla Drechler: I'm going to go back to you because I really want you to talk a little bit more about the loving Israel and what we talked about earlier.

Shalom Orzach: I think the scaffolding for doing what we have to do post October the 7th has always been there, and I think we need to dig deeper into the pedagogy, some of the core principles, and I think most importantly, the core purpose of Jewish and Israel education, not either, but actually both, to begin to consider not so much the challenges, but I think the opportunities that this moment in time provides.

So the other mantra, is how do we choose to tell? The trauma, not the story, the trauma of the exodus of Egypt. And we do it every year. And we don't even use the technique of feed them and they will come. Ultimately we do that. Speak to them, and we really believe this, and they will come.

We spent most of the evening schmoozing, talking. It's the Thanksgiving without the turkey. The turkey comes later on, we've got to eat a lot of strange items of food, and yet we seem to have a relatively captive audience. Why? Because we are answering the following mantra. that we are obligated to as a people.

V'higadata levincha. Tell it to your children. And here's the fantastic way we tell it, and I believe this is the fantastic way we need to retell it post October the 7th. We use a book, not coincidentally called a Haggadah. The telling book. I don't even know how we translate it and I don't want to know.

We lose so much in translation. Which is a slight plug. Please, please let's learn and speak Hebrew. And stop translating. But here's the deal with the Haggadah. If the purpose of that evening is to tell the story of the Exodus of Egypt, I never needed to write a Haggadah.

I have the book. It's called Exodus. What more do I need? Just read it. You'll get it. And perhaps we can Eat earlier on in the evening. But what do I do in that book? And it's genius. I tell stories about telling stories about telling stories. And each story I tell is more brilliant, and please read them again for the first time.

Because that's the paradigm. That's the model. That's the scaffolding we have to use also after this trauma. One of the iconic stories we tell. Indulge me for a moment. It's not going to be the Satanite. Don't worry. Won't be that long. One of the iconic stories we tell is a story of five of the giants of their time.

I would have said a couple of years ago, the equivalent of the Ivy League schools. But that would now be insulting those giants. So I'm not going to go there. But you get what I'm saying. They are gathered in a room in a place called Bnei Barak. What's missing from that story? I'm invited to be a fly on the wall.

I'm invited to be round their table in a very intimate setting. And I come out extremely frustrated because I never hear the pearls of their wisdom. I don't know what they said and I'm gathered at that table to hear what they said. How do I cope with this trauma? Give me a chidush. Give me a new insight and they are silent.

En milim, at least from them. And then the genius part of this story telling a story about telling a story occurs. Because who is scripted? They're pupils. It is the pupils that become the teachers. It is from the pupils that I have a learning and a yearning. They remind their teachers that it is time to say the Shema.

And in that Shema, we are reminded of the opening. V'shinan tam levanecha. They are humbly, respectfully reminding their teachers, speak.

Dr. Ezra Kopelowitz: So I want to take, what you're doing is you're taking us to the pinnacle of which is you have this like master educators able to grab the kids by their bootstraps, shake them existentially, you know, and throw them into the world asking really deep, deep kind of questions about life.

And if you look at like. You've got exceptional programs like, you know, Shalom Hartman's, wellspring programs. You've got kids who come out of there with this worldview and ability and, you know, the best of the rabbinical students will come out and work in summer camps and bring But the, the real challenge is that actually you said to speak at the end and that to speak actually doesn't happen very much.

And even, even our educators and our rabbis Actually they speak, but they don't actually see their, their imperative is to get the student to speak and to listen. now we talk about scaffolding, right? So there's two parts here to this puzzle. One is a scaffolding that enables intense Jewish emotional connection, of which we see, we're going to say with Israel as an example, that Israel's a special place.

It's an, it's an historical place, it's part of our history, it's part of our biblical history, it's in our sacred texts, and we can come in from that direction. It's part of our modern history. It's also, if you can take, for example, like a summer camp, right? There's shlichim, there's other kids from Israel in many camps.

There's songs that we sing. There's Israeli popular music. so, if you want to take, just let's save us shlichim for a second. There's some camps. That will make sure that the Israeli Shlichim don't sleep in a bunk together and don't have their days off together, but they're spread out throughout the camp.

They have to eat meals. They cannot be eating together. They sit in the tables. And their role is to have conversations. And it's to speak about their lives and to ask questions and for them to answer questions. And their role is not to start telling people they have to come to Israel and make Aliyah to be good Jews, which used to be the case.

But It's to speak. Now the question becomes, do you have the interactions? Right, not all camps will have interactions. Actually, a unique camp that ensures that the shlichim are spread out within the camp. And there's lots of discussions and conversations.

and it's the same for everything else. There's some camps, for instance, that people, they don't sing Jewish songs. Many of the camps, especially the day camps, they don't sing Jewish songs. Singing Jewish songs together, where you know the same words, of which Israel might be a part. is a very basic emotional experience where I sing songs, which I might not understand, or if I do understand, might not agree with the words, but I do it because I'm a Jew with other Jews, and if I really don't like the words of the song, then let's speak about it.

and so what I've just done here is within two moments, you have the ability to sing together, but there's also the ability to ask what's the meaning of the song, if we want to stay with song. And why do we sing the song and do we agree with the words and where does the song come from?

And do I have the right to actually change the words? and that's already getting closer to where you're heading. So you've got both this issue of emotional bonding, which is a form of solidarity, but it's not solidarity. You don't have to think the same. But you recognize that this is a song we sing together and I'm able to do it.

That you talked about the ability to have conversations which drive meaning. And where you can have a level of complexity. So if you want to think about the shlichim, their role is not only to introduce the campers to modern Israeli music that they love, which is really successful, because they come back to their homes, they've got pop music that they're playing, they've got something special to bring back.

But it's also actually to talk about their lives and the way this music refracts. And so, so that's the issue is, and most what you're describing is the pinnacle, because it takes so much knowledge, so much confidence. to be able to, to generate and to ask, to use that as the basis of conversation. And that's the problem, is that we tend to have the bonding stuff at the, at the best of institutions.

At the worst of institutions, you don't even have the thing together. But then, even at the best of institutions, especially when it comes to Israel, there's not the opportunity taken to take the feeling of emotional intensity and the heart beating moments. And you said there's a way there to speak, and that's the, that's the part that's critical.

Hilla Drechler: just follow up this and ask you, all of you, if you see in your work any, trends, any shifting with, among educators or among learners, like in a more practical way. Like, do you see after, October 7th, any changing in camps or in their classroom? Do you think there educator, educators, it could be teachers.

rabbis has the, the means, the abilities, the, the tools to, address the learners as what you just said. And, and in general to have to, to start at least the conversation.

Shalom Orzach: I think, the desire to be around that table, whether the table it is the. Thanksgiving table, the Seder night table, the Shabbat table, the summer camp table, the Hillel table, etc.,

has grown profoundly. Whilst around that table, I'm going to make the space for people to share where they are at now. That doesn't require so much knowledge, but it does require a sense of commitment, a sense of understanding how I choose to show up. And if already they are coming to summer camp and the schools, Jewish school, you know this better than I, in some places, I was just in Toronto, they are bursting at the seams.

That desire to come back. Habaita, to come home, to celebrate, to begin to tell their story of what is going on in my life. And I'll just share one vignette, which is an educational opportunity, not a challenge. Par excellence. Last year, in the training for summer camp staff in Cornerstone, we were talking to a from in the Habonim Druor system.

Somebody who, two years ago, had no hesitation about delineating the worlds, the clubs, the tables, he was invited to sit at. Post October the 7th, with tears in his eyes, he was asking or expressing, I don't know who I am anymore. The clubs that he had automatic membership were not renewing his membership.

That's an understatement. They were being kicked out. And he was seeking the inner truth of who am I? That's a remarkable opportunity. That's also a remarkable conversation, which invites people in to rediscover what is my story? The Egypt story that took me to all sorts of spaces, justifiably and total understandably.

But, nonetheless, can now be also interpreted as maze omel bishvili. What does it mean for me? Not just for me in terms of my relationship with them. Now is a moment of truly looking in myself to say, again, echoing Mike Rosenak and so many others, this is what we do. It's that simple. But that complicated when it's made less simple.

Rabbi Dr. Laura Novak Winer: I think that one of the things related to what you're saying, Shalom, is that, what I see in young people in the last year plus, and in our educators, is a struggle with how to actually navigate that are in tension with each other, I walked in this morning and I met a young man who was at a certain summer camp who was very unhappy because at this summer camp, They were allowing some of the staff to wear keffiyehs and to wear t shirts.

That's, and it was a Jewish summer camp. and, and so I was introduced to this young man as a way to say, because I have a relationship with a different Jewish summer camp, and to say, you know, you could, maybe you might want to consider a different summer camp where you're, right? And I can understand the challenge that That first summer camp is dealing with and I see, I saw it at the summer camp that I'm involved in and that our young people, we've done such a good job of teaching them all sorts of Jewish values, right?

B'tzelem Elohim, care for all human, all human creations, all of God's creations, right? Tikkun Olam, right? we were once strangers in a strange land, right? All those Jewish values. And we're also teaching them Ahavat Yisrael and Kol Yisrael, Aravim Zebazel. and In this past year, those values have been in tension with each other and our young people and our parents and our teachers and educators don't know how to help the learners navigate through those and find a new way through because how can we both care for those who are different than us and also support Only Jews, right, or the land of Israel or the state, right?

These tensions and so when I hear people saying that they want to just exercise those young people who are struggling with their understanding of Israel and their connection and what it means to their Judaism, I say, let's not exercise them. Let's welcome them in and help them engage with these Jewish values and figure out how they're going to find their pathway through.

Shalom Orzach: I'll just quickly, I think, and again, this is a cheshbon nefesh that's been spoken about this morning, and I think we need to continue speaking about it and doing it. The fact that those values are in tension means that I think we've done something wrong in our educational process. Can we not live in the Eilu Ve'eilu?

Right. Eilu Ve'eilu. Both of these are the living words of God. And that path, oh, those paths may not be easy, which is why we need to Practice them all the time. Otherwise, I'm not going to be in shape. And I think of practice in an athletic modality, thanks to the Jewish sports camp that does it brilliantly.

Rabbi Dr. Laura Novak Winer: yes.

Shalom Orzach: Brilliantly. I don't want to have to juggle all the time. And our role as educators is to enable and create that space where, however we choose to understand tikkun olam, which I think we need to Double down on exactly what that is.

I need to be able to move my mission statement from the website, if I'm working in camps, to the campsite. I need to be able to see what it is. I need to be able to have that space to struggle. where the two may contradict one another. But hey, welcome to our world. I thrive on contradictions. We do as a people.

Why have we lost that ability to quote Shammai before Hillel? To quote with empathy and passion a view that I ultimately disagree with. But if I would stop my presentation just at Shammai Just at the opinion that I disagree with, you'd probably be pretty convinced that that's my view. Right. Why have we lost that skill set?

Dr. Ezra Kopelowitz: The issue is integrating opportunities for discussion And to inculcate that throughout the system And it's discussion that's based upon acquisition of knowledge That we're talking about the same thing and knowledge is not necessarily only historical knowledge, that's one kind of knowledge. you have moral ethical knowledge of the type you just talked about Exodus.

You're both getting script and scripture and ancient history, but you're also getting ethical knowledge. It's emotional knowledge, it's the ability of the value of listening, for instance, is something that has to be inculcated. it's contextual knowledge of current events. and there's so many ways of which you can, bring knowledge to the table as you're doing something else, but then actually asking, well, what did you think about what we just discussed?

And that's something that has been built and taught we just did a big survey we had 1200 educators respond on October 7th, and the vast majority are really kind of major anxiety. we asked people to write about their practices, what's the big challenge and how you're responding.

And you have a minority, it was about a third, who really kind of dug in to this integrative approach, where they were able to talk about, for instance, a history teacher that talked about going into the 19th century context of which the Zionist movement was created, and the anti Semitism that reigned.

And then having, talking about the context today, is a Jewish state still a source of security and answer to anti Semites? And that just as a way of, of just one example of how do you broach both knowledge acquisition, but also discussion and complexity. So it's to build systematically throughout the system, the ability to speak in the best of circumstances based upon deep knowledge.

But in every circumstance that there's this, there's an imperative to speak.

Hilla Drechler: I have to say it's fascinating. I want to go a little bit, forward just because of time and ask, Question from a totally different direction, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. Without getting too political, or maybe, yes, I don't know, whatever you prefer, do you think Israel has or should have a special role in Jewish education in the diaspora or in Jewish communities?

And if so, what do you see as a fruitful, meaningful, involvement? And again, just because of time, try to keep it, like, two, three sentences.

Dr. Ezra Kopelowitz: Exactly.

Hilla Drechler: Shalom, I'm gonna,

Dr. Ezra Kopelowitz: yeah, I'll be,

Hilla Drechler: Okay.

Shalom Orzach: Don't leave me any time.

Rabbi Dr. Laura Novak Winer: I have so much I want to -

Hilla Drechler: Okay, four sentences.

Rabbi Dr. Laura Novak Winer: What should be the role? I think I'm gonna say the thing that you and I were talking about earlier. American, Israel education is grounded on a theory of Israel education that was taught and created in the beginnings of the state of Israel in the 40s that was called, in English we call it Land of Israel Studies, in Israel they call it Yediata Aretz.

Getting to know the land, and it actually still exists today and Israelis engage in this every year of their education that they go out into the country and they go on teul and they go on hiking and they get to know the rocks and they get to know the wadis and they get to know the, botany and, right, all of that.

And that's part of the culture of Israel, of going out on picnic on chag and, right? that informed our creation of formulation of Israel education here in America. and that's why I believe that so much of Israel education here starts with geography that we're teaching young children.

Where is Tel Aviv and that it was the first city and where is Petah Tikva and where is Yerushalayim and Haifa has the sea and the port, right? Like, all of those things. But there's a disconnect. There's a disconnect because our young people are learning to understand a geography of something that they have no connection to.

No relationship with, right? And we're trying with that effort. To build love, right? That our goal is Ahavat Yisrael. And there's a disconnect there because how can learning geography about a land and a place and a country that you've never been in or never visited actually create love?

So what I believe that we need to be doing is rethinking our goals and reimagining that Israel education is Yiddiah. It is knowledge, but more than just cognition, and more than just comprehension and facts. But it's Yediat Yisrael, which is building an understanding of Israel that is cognitive, that is contextualized, that is dialogical, that is experiential, that is grounded in an understanding that Yisrael is not just a place, but also a people, and that we have to be able to see and support and accompany each other, that we're interdependent.

of each other and that there's mutual understanding of each other. So it's not just that we as American Jews are there to support Israel, which is what we were trying to do 40, 50, even 25 years ago. It was American Jews have to learn about Israel in order to support Israel or even to make Aliyah live there.

but rather we're interdependent on each other and it's also theological and spiritual and it's helping us to discern what Eretz Yisrael means to each of us and our worldview. So, and it's, I'm going to use a big word, sorry, academic here. It's also epistemological, which is that knowing Israel helps us to understand the world and our place in it and how we act in it.

Hilla Drechler: So let me just follow this Ezra you'll want to answer and Laura you can also. if that's the role of Israel in Jewish education, what do you think, if any, the Israeli government should have some kind of role in Jewish education here.

Like, for instance, when I was here on the Shlichut, we brought Morim Shlichim, Israeli educators to teach Hebrew and Jewish studies in Jewish day schools. Do you think, what do you think about this? Or maybe other, kind of, friend that the Israeli government should, be involved in?

Rabbi Dr. Laura Novak Winer: I think that if we are all mishpucha, to use my Ashkenazi family Yiddish roots, right? We're all mishpucha. then we have to actually be there to support each other and to help each other learn about each other. whether it's the W. Z. O. or whether it's the self new, Whoever it is,

Helping Israelis learn about and develop mutual understanding of Jews elsewhere in the world. And we, making the commitment, whoever we are outside of Israel, Jews in the diaspora, also learning about and connecting with. Israelis, that's easier said than done. And it requires all sorts of funding and structures and meaningful interactions.

But the fact that we have Shinshinim and Shlichim around North America is important and, probably not enough, right? Just like I've heard other people talk about this more than know more about it than I, but like. Birthright sent, you know, how many hundreds of thousands of teens, and young adults to Israel.

Let's bring Israelis to Yeah.

Dr. Ezra Kopelowitz: But all of this is new. I mean, it's all just about 30 years old, this whole operation. Right. Yeah. so, I just, I just think to addressing your original question Yes. You used the word epistemological, so I gave the example in the beginning of the trauma of October 7th to actually, it's like the embodied response of Jews to what was going on around them is you couldn't ignore it because Israel is just simply part of your consciousness as a Jew.

And seeming to realize that is for many a big surprise. you cannot be Jewish without Israel as part of your consciousness. The question is what is that? mean. We're part of a civilization, which has been handed down to us, each one of us through our family stories, throughout life in the community, through knowledge we acquire, it's language, it's food, it's humor, it's music, it's religion, it's ritual, it's Torah.

Israel's in there. It's just, it's in there. and so you cannot speak about being Jewish without Israel. The question is, how do we act on that? And so they're political, obviously, ideology comes in, which songs you sing, which scriptures do you cite? which political parties do you support in Israel? how do you take the Exodus story and interpret it in terms of do we need to circle the wagons and protect ourselves from the Egyptians?

Or do we go and create a new society? the question becomes how do you nurture That relationship so that it becomes constructive so that it enables Jews to speak to one each other and not to be like in the current election the whole idea that if you vote for one party you're anti israel you vote for another party You're pro israel is completely self defeating the question becomes how do the different policies of the political parties impact my worldview and what I think Israel should be You need to discuss it and have the conversation and the strengths and weaknesses of both parties policies.

so can Israel be integrated into a place in Jewish life that actually creates relationships? So it's very easy to see with shlichim at camps that it's possible, but I can tell you from our research that shlichim go to camps where they sleep together, just the Israelis, they work together, they have their day off together, they come out of the summer with stronger negative stereotypes of the Americans.

so it's actually very intentional, it's very intentional work to be able to bring Israel into a place where it's actually a strength of Jewish communal life. It has to be part of Jewish community, but can be very divisive, very destructive as well. Like anything, right? Like any aspect of life, you can disagree if it's meaningful, and a family can be ripped apart, right?

Or a family can choose. to ignore it. In that case, it means Israel is off the dinner table and just not part of the family life, or a family can say, Okay, you've come back from college with some really crazy ideas. We were not capable of speaking about the politics without blowing up, but why don't we learn a bit together?

Why don't we learn a bit about what the Zionism, Zionism movement even is?

Rabbi Dr. Laura Novak Winer: Yeah.

Dr. Ezra Kopelowitz: There's all kinds of opportunities at which you can move to a place of knowledge, discussion, and developing a more robust communal family life.

Shalom Orzach: yeah, I'm going to, I want to challenge the paradigm, and I think perhaps post October the 7th, but we so did not need to wait for this moment, but this is the moment we're in. I've always struggled with Israel's exclusive rights to tell others their story. I want to be in a relationship where we are meeting as equals.

Therefore, as the idea has kind of become more and more popular, I want to count the number of shlichim in Israel from outside of Israel. I want to be enamored. by the Jewish stories, the diaspora stories, our family stories that are told unapologetically by people who don't live in Israel. I don't want the monopoly.

I don't want to be the only country sending shlichim. I can live with the idea maybe of being first among equals. But we've gained or we've become arrogant with that and I don't like it. I've never overly bought into it So what the Israeli government at the moment has to offer Jewish pride Jewish belonging a sense of purpose as opposed to being constantly downgraded and In a conversation of not equals.

I would send you shlichim because you need help. Oy yoy yoy, we so need to stop that. We so need to open ourselves up into those conversations of equals. I want to learn from your stories in the same way that I believe you can learn from mine. But again, I want to stop using the you and us. Can we just start speaking in the we?

And this is a moment in time where degrees of separation are non existent. And I return to the mantra of inviting ourselves in to defining what does it mean to be a member. No, not a member, a citizen of the Jewish people today. And I don't want to be patronized by any government officials telling me what I need to do to be a citizen of Israel.

Oh, Bekaliya, pay taxes, and do the army. And when those people are doing none of those. And you know who I'm speaking about. None of them stop patronizing me by defining what does it mean to have membership in this people. That's an educational moment, not a political moment. That's an educational moment par excellence where I am opening myself up to the legitimacy, to the importance, and to the deep belief that our stories count.

So start, start creating the stories we want to tell to our children, to our pupils, that sometimes will be our teachers. And as often as possible, we should invite them into being our teachers. That's one of the big takeaways of the Seder service. We don't rely on the stories of others, whether they are Shalichim, or whether they're rabbis.

or whether they're teachers. We give space for you to tell your story through the influence of being around that table maybe year after year, hopefully week after week, Shabbat, maybe even day after day, when we convene together and reflect on the news. And reflect on the views and reflect on the Jews. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

What are we going to be telling each other? What are the new profoundly important insights we will have to share with each other as equals? As equals? So start sending shlichim unapologetically to Israel. Because you have something to say. And the Israeli government should be funding it.

Hilla Drechler: I agree.

Shalom Orzach: But not asking you.

We're paying too much taxes anyway. But stop asking you to fund the things that we believe are important for you. That too is so arrogant and so patronizing. We need to come in with much more humility. That's where we are now. Trauma may also produce humility. And let's embrace that. And hold each other as siblings hold each other.

And give us the space to really show up. Not showing up to listen to what I need to hear, but also showing up with the ability to tell my story.

Hilla Drechler: Thank you very much. So I promise I'm going to leave some time for questions.

One, two, three, and then we'll see if we have time for more.

Dr. Ezra Kopelowitz: There was a critical point raised, about Elu the Elu versus tension in values. I think this is really the crux of what's happening here. In a very short, because we don't have much time, can you talk about how can the educators and the parents bridge this divide between Tukan Olam and the Tzahal on the ground in Lebanon or, or in Gaza?

People see, some people see a tension there. And that has to be figured out. Any, any thoughts about how those things can be elu ve elu and

Rabbi Dr. Laura Novak Winer: held together? Well, so I actually, maybe we are interpreting elu ve elu differently or maybe we're teaching, we're interpreting the same, but Isn't that the point? Yes, that is the point.

I see when we say elu ve elu they both, right, we're saying both this and that are the words of Of, of, from heaven, right? So they both exist and they are in tension with each other. When values are in tension with each other, it's not that we're choosing one value over another, it's actually how do we, how do we find a way in which we can honor both?

So, I don't think it's about choosing one or the other, right? I'm going to direct you, if you're curious more about values and tension, I'm going to direct you to a really beautiful, piece that you can read the academic version or you can read, go to eJewishPhilanthropy. org and read, Dr. Leslie Lipman and Dr.

Michael Zeldin have written about values and tension. I appreciated the way you put this, Shalom, because it's how I talk to my students about building muscles, right? We have to learn how to build muscles, to be able to navigate through those values that are in tension, because we can't pick one or the other.

I'm not going to choose Tikkun Olam over Kol Yisrael Aravim Zebazet. I'm not. I have to do both. I can't give up one. So I think that, it's about giving our educators and parents and Children and young everybody the opportunity to see that we don't, we shouldn't be choosing one or the other. We have to find a creative third way through to honor both.

Hilla Drechler: So I just want to give time for some more questions, so if it's okay with

Audience Member: you. so much. Michael Sosby from Oakland, past president of the Board of the Jewish Community High School of the Bay. belong to Orthodoxy and God. Obviously I care about day schools, but my question has to do with what about the rest of the Jewish children in America?

There are many more of them than there are at day schools. I'm curious, post October 7th, do you know of any organizations that are making a real effort to both put curriculum and technology together so that we can reach those children? Where, where can we get leverage? They're showing up in college, and they become the, as a Jew, Jew.

And if it doesn't exist, how

Dr. Ezra Kopelowitz: do

Audience Member: we create it?

Dr. Ezra Kopelowitz: I mean, there's a very simple equation with the number of Jewish engagements you have over the course of your life, the more you're embedded in the Jewish community. if somebody is not affiliated, the level of knowledge and access is going to be radically diminished.

the question is, how do you reach those people? Birthright was the best example ever of, because you had a free trip. Someone signed up and they met the Jewish people. I'm not aware in terms of this tremendous infrastructure of using technology and learning right now.

just something came into my inbox about a person who was developing a documentary on Well, I'm not gonna go. We don't have time. But there's tremendous innovation in the field. There's organizations specializing in it. Working through social media, in particular, there's Israel 21C, UNPAC, there's a whole, but, you know, and they're reaching out there, but I couldn't tell you in terms of how intentionally they are interacting.

And in the end of the day, you need people who are actually having conversations, and that requires affiliation or people showing up, which is happening, we know,

Shalom Orzach: I think there's an opportunity and a need to reimagine the spaces that already exist and to expand or maybe work on our muscles to enable more people to find their place in those spaces.

So there is a self fulfilling prophecy that people don't want to show up in synagogue, it's just not cool. Or people don't want to show up in Hillel or Chabad because it's just not cool. But those are the spaces that exist and they're not at full capacity. So I have to imagine, how do I make those spaces a little bit more inviting?

And part of the answer, and again I don't want to assume that this is the automatic answer, but part of the answer is Let them in to tell us what they need as opposed to assuming we know what the, you know, like come to this space.

Can you ask me what I would like to do in this space? And having those conversations, I think there is an opportunity now to have those conversations because people are looking for those spaces, really looking for those spaces. And we could use that to leverage or to launch pad, whatever. New ideas of how we enable people to come home.

Rabbi Dr. Laura Novak Winer: I actually would take it a step further and this relates to the previous session that was going on in here around legacy institutions. I think that we not only that inviting people into those spaces, whether it's the JCC or the synagogue or the Hillel, or the youth movement is important and to hear, listen to them is important.

valuable, really, really important and valuable. And I think we also need to view those people who are the entrepreneur who are being entrepreneurial and who are trying to create new spaces and we need to support them and we need to not view them as threats because Whether it's in a virtual space or a brick and mortar space, young people these days are creating new ways of engaging, and that are meeting their needs.

And, it might be niche, but we should be supporting them, encouraging them, learning from, learning with them,

Dr. Ezra Kopelowitz: And giving them a

Shalom Orzach: space. This is

Hilla Drechler: the land of

Shalom Orzach: start ups.

Hilla Drechler: Definitely true. And you see more and more of those Let's take last question.

Audience Member: I'm actually a YEPI, so I see that it's already time. I'll ask my question after.

Hilla Drechler: Thank you. so, Honestly, I have like another 20 questions here, but It's not gonna work. So I would like to, express my, sincere gratitude. to my colleagues here, for this, I think, inspiring and vital, discussion.

And to all of you, of course, for your, participation. those are challenging times, for the Jewish community and Jews and for Israel and for Israelis. And in such times and always, education becomes our most powerful tool, right? It's not political. It's educational.

Our most powerful tool for a long term change. Maybe also short term. I don't know. Let's hope so wishing you all a productive and meaningful rest of the day. And thank you so much for being here

Rabbi Dr. Laura Novak Winer: with

Hilla Drechler: us.