Episode 1: Gazan-American & Jewish-Israeli Discuss October 7, War, & Paths to Peace
Tune in to Episode 1 of a new special series of conversations between Z3 founder and podcast host Rabbi Amitai Fraiman and Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, a passionate activist for Gazans and Palestinians.
In this powerful episode, Ahmed shares his personal journey through immense loss and ongoing conflict. Having lost 31 family members in Gaza since October 7th, Ahmed speaks about his deep pain and how it fuels his commitment to advocating for peace and understanding. He reflects on the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the challenges of maintaining humanity amidst tragedy, and his hope for restoring mutual respect and cooperation. Tune in to hear Ahmed’s heartfelt message on navigating grief and striving for a balanced path forward. We are deeply grateful to Ahmed for joining us in this difficult but crucial conversation in these times of deep division and strife.
About our guest:
Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib is an American writer and analyst who grew up in Gaza City, having left in 2005 as a teenage exchange student to the United States. He writes extensively on Gaza’s political and humanitarian affairs and has been an outspoken critic of Hamas and a promoter of coexistence and peace as the only path forward between Palestinians and Israelis. Alkhatib is a resident senior fellow with the Scowcroft Middle East Security Initiative at the Atlantic Council’s Middle East Programs. He has a bachelor’s degree in business administration and a master’s in intelligence and national security studies. His writing has been published in US, and Israeli outlets and his opinions and comments have been featured in the international press.
Episode Transcript
00:00:58:14 - 00:01:24:22
Hi, and welcome to the Z3 podcast. I'm Amitai Fraiman, the director of the Z3 project. And this is our podcast. In today's episode, I had a very moving and insightful and quite frankly, hopeful conversation with my friend Ahmed Fouad Al Khatib. He is a nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council. He's a writer. He's an activist. He's a leading voice, an emerging leader in the space of creating bridges and conversations between communities.
00:01:24:22 - 00:01:44:01
He's an outspoken critic of Hamas. He's lost family members, unfortunately, in this current cycle of violence and war in Gaza. And nonetheless, despite all of this, you know, he is incredibly pragmatic and hopeful and gave me, I have to say, a lot of inspiration and hope for our future. We covered a variety of topics.
00:01:44:01 - 00:02:06:20
We heard about his background, his upbringing. his different, perspectives of what's happening and his estimation of the civil society or what's going on in Gaza as we speak and as well as in the West Bank. And we shared ideas and about, you know, our perspectives about ways to start thinking about moving forward from a Palestinian perspective more so than from an Israeli perspective, because I really wanted to hear his, his own experience.
00:02:06:20 - 00:02:25:29
And hopefully this is just the first conversation of many in which we can dive deeper. It's not every day that we get someone like Ahmed to be here at our JCC and on this podcast, and as someone who grew up, grew up in Israel, served in the IDF, including in Gaza, an operation cost led. you know, it's not something that I take for granted to have this opportunity to speak to Ahmed.
00:02:26:00 - 00:02:52:01
It's been a great, conversation, really meaningful and hopefully a way for us to model how we can move forward. And having these, important and critical, conversations and bridge building initiatives. So, thank you for joining us. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. Please follow us on the various platforms on, x formerly Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, and of course, join our mailing list.
00:02:52:04 - 00:02:57:14
This is the Z3 Project Podcast with Ahmed Khatib. Thank you for joining us. Have a great listen.
00:02:57:14 - 00:03:29:03
I mean, it's great to have you here. Thanks for having me. it took us a while to get this conversation. You're incredibly busy, but I feel, a great sense of gratitude for coming down, schlepping down here to our JCC to have this conversation. You know, as we've discussed, this podcast is, in a way, an extension of our, in-person events and conference meant to give people an opportunity to hear a variety of voices and opinions about, issues and areas of interest for the Jewish community and beyond from a variety of people.
00:03:29:06 - 00:03:51:24
You know, we've had, journalists, rabbis, activists, campus leaders, you know, all over the political and social map. And I really can't, understate this. I'm really thrilled that we're finally able to have this conversation. and I'm just excited for our audience to hear from you. Thank you. Likewise. And I appreciate talking to the different audiences. I appreciate meeting new folks, new community centers.
00:03:51:27 - 00:04:16:18
and that's my ethos is conversation, engagement, discussion. We don't have to agree. We have to we can respectfully disagree. But I also feel like certainly with you and I and a lot of, folks in our orbit, like we share the same goals, we want the same destination, which is for the two people to kind of climb out of this hell hole that we're in, and to find a path forward that is different than what has been happening for the last few decades.
00:04:16:18 - 00:04:40:28
Certainly, for the last few months, since October 7th, for sure. So, I welcome any opportunity to engage, disagree, agree. As long as we're, in agreement that what's happening right now is horrendous, the loss of life is awful. I've certainly been impacted by it. I've had numerous sleepless nights. I mean, I feel like I'm constantly running on 4 or 5 hours of sleep and it's just not sustainable.
00:04:40:28 - 00:05:03:02
But at the same time, none of that should preclude me from sitting down with former IDF soldier and like talking about these issues and I if I understand correctly, I think you deployed to Gaza in the past and so yeah like that doesn't make me oh my god. Like, how dare you. You know, it's like I'm actually I'm, I'm interested in these conversations, so I'm glad I welcome the opportunity.
00:05:03:02 - 00:05:25:10
I'm glad I'm really thankful. And I think that, you know, it's worth, you know, typically my first question is like, you know, how are you or why are you in this seat, right. How do we get to this point? We're having this conversation, and that's the give to, you know, the audience, your story, your background, because I know you, but they don't yet, or some of them might know, but, you know, just like a, you know, an overview of, you know, your story and what you're up to.
00:05:25:18 - 00:05:48:06
Certainly. and I, I often say that I miss my life of relative obscurity before, October 7th. And, so I start my journey to the United States began in 2005, one month before the withdrawal of, the settlement or the disengagement. I left in July 1st as an exchange student with a U.S. State Department program, a U.S. government program.
00:05:48:06 - 00:06:11:10
It was a post 911 initiative to bring young Middle Eastern and Muslim students to the United States, go to an American high school, live with a host family, and then go back to your native homeland and build cultural bridges between the West and, the Arab world. So, I came here in the Bay area up north and, by right, right next to San Francisco.
00:06:11:13 - 00:06:37:16
I lived with a host family, went to local high school as a, junior and high school. I finished the program. I attempted to go back in June of 2006. now, by then, Hamas had won the elections in, 2000, in the spring of 2006. And I was stuck in Egypt, unable to cross into Gaza through the Rafah border crossing, because Hamas had launched the operation to kidnap Gilad Shalit.
00:06:37:18 - 00:07:08:04
And then two, three weeks later, there was the 33-day war with Hezbollah in Lebanon. And so, I was in Egypt for a few months, unable to return thanks to the support of my U.S. host mother and an incredible network of human rights and peace activists in the United States, I was able to return to the Bay area and kind of resume my, studies and to finish high school, but I also began the path towards, to, to apply towards, to obtain political asylum status.
00:07:08:07 - 00:07:38:18
There were broad and specific threats, that would have potentially jeopardized my safety, in Gaza, having participated in this program. but also because of what was unfolding in Gaza, the slow brewing civil war between Hamas and Fatah, there were some, extremist elements, who really were somewhat novel to the Palestinian scene at the time in the sense of how much reach and power and, and control they had.
00:07:38:20 - 00:08:01:04
and then, ironically, my asylum interview, my political asylum in the United States, the interview for that took place on June 14th, 2007, the very day that Hamas took over, the Gaza Strip. And so that was a big boost to my case. And I ultimately received asylum. The following year, I got my green card, in 2009, became a citizen in 2014.
00:08:01:06 - 00:08:23:22
so, this, and this February was my 10th anniversary of being a United States citizen. and so, I finished high school, went to college, and, Sam Cisco, USF, City College and then University of San Francisco was I got a degree in business. I thought I was going to go in tech, but I, I shifted gears to the nonprofit and NGO sector working with homelessness and poverty.
00:08:23:22 - 00:08:50:25
And starting in 2013 and then, in 2015, because of and we can certainly talk about it more at length. I, started a nonprofit organization focused on Gaza, trying to build an internationally run, Israeli approved airport airfield to facilitate the movement of people in and out in cargo without Hamas having any control over the facility. So that was sort of my first like formal engagement with this issue.
00:08:50:27 - 00:09:19:07
But the combination and I made quite a bit of progress. Again, we can talk about it in detail, but the, I think the priorities of the last administration, shifted some of the focus, if you will, and frustrated that effort such that I retreated from that particular, organization. But I retained quite a bit of my knowledge, my contacts, my experiences, and it would come in handy, after October 7th.
00:09:19:10 - 00:09:44:01
And I've been my day job, if you will, for the last eight years. I work in, for an organization that, does international development, in Africa, doing research and recommendation for, interventions that are cost effective, that save lives. and the global South focusing on global health and poverty. I'm on the financial administrative slash operational side of the effort.
00:09:44:03 - 00:10:07:23
But then. Yeah. And I, I obtained a master's last year in intelligence and national security studies. I, had aspired to work for the United States government, maybe the State Department, in international relations. But so, when I say relative obscurity, as in October 7th, when, when that happened, you know, I had my day job.
00:10:07:23 - 00:10:31:08
I had my master's degree. I was looking at options both for NGOs or to, work in the State Department. and I'm going to actually reveal something that I haven't shared publicly, before, which is that I actually had a job, lined up at the State Department, and I was going through the process of, of, obtaining, you know, all the clearances and requirements.
00:10:31:08 - 00:10:54:04
And I got to the very final stretch, earlier this year, and I actually, walked away from that effort because it would have required that I no longer speak. I no longer write and engage publicly because you would be affiliated with the United States government and so there would be restrictions to what I could say. And I felt that my voice was valuable and needed for now at least.
00:10:54:06 - 00:11:14:19
So, yeah. And then when October 7th rolled around, I mean, most of my immediate and extended family lived in Gaza and live in Gaza or what remains of them. And when I saw what was happening, it was our Friday night, October 6th. I'd just come back from a long walk. by the beach. Was that good mood? It was Friday night.
00:11:14:21 - 00:11:46:15
I saw what was unfolding, and I immediately registered the catastrophe that was about to befall our people. I immediately knew the Gaza as we knew it would cease to exist. I was obviously horrified by what was happening to the Israeli communities near Gaza. And as more details kept emerging, I knew that this would trigger a horrendous chapter. But more importantly, before October 7th, I was quite aware of the challenges that Hamas was facing in the Gaza Strip.
00:11:46:16 - 00:12:12:05
And I was quite aware of their financial problems, Qatar slowly wanting to back away from them, only for Netanyahu to send the head of Mossad to say, no, keep that going. You can talk about this more. And also, the, unrest that the group was facing by a lot of the popular protests, and at the end of July and August, most people don't know that there were mass protests against unemployment, against the lack of a political horizon.
00:12:12:07 - 00:12:38:02
And so, I had suspected, and in my conversations with, with family, friends, allies, contacts, the people that I retained from my Gaza airport work, I had a feeling that Hamas would, in fact, embark on a horrendous adventure to try to extricate itself from this. I didn't know it would be of this magnitude. I didn't know it would be of this, of this great, if you will.
00:12:38:05 - 00:12:53:25
And so, and adding into that also, of course, what we were seeing was like this inching towards a normalization with the Saudis. Precisely. And what that meant for the region, the broader region. That was just another, another, piece of data to take into that whole, you know, the local and the global in terms of what's going to push them.
00:12:53:25 - 00:13:28:11
Sorry, I didn't mean to. No, no, not at all. I mean, in fact, I mean Hamas and realizing basically that the Arab world is moving on, that the I mean, and that's what I tell a lot of the folks you know, who disagree with me is that there's this fallacy that time is on the Palestinian people side. Demographically it might be so, but what I was telling them is after the Arab Spring, you know, it went from Palestine being very unifying Arab cause to you had the disintegration of Libya and Yemen and Syria and the problem, the disaster in Iraq and all the other instabilities in the region and the different wars to
00:13:28:11 - 00:13:53:16
where Palestine is no longer that that unifying, singular Arab issue. And so, Hamas felt that the normalization between Saudi and Israel would be the final kind of nail in the coffin of the Arabs paying attention to Palestine. But also, I mean, some of that has to do with the Palestinian divisions and the Palestinian issues and failures that we can discuss later.
00:13:53:19 - 00:14:15:05
So, I was horrified. I mean, just and I really want to set the stage, if you will, by what motivated me to put myself out there. And again, I was, you know, taking a risk because I had already secured this job with the State Department. I could have just stayed quiet and just focus on that. But I was horrified by multiple things.
00:14:15:05 - 00:14:39:22
I was horrified by the sheer tragedy of what took place, the demon or the dehumanization. Rather, of the Israeli victims, and the normalization of what Hamas had just done in terms of the taking of women and children hostages, the killing of large numbers of people, the, the, the throwing grenades and shelters with people in, the burning of homes with people live in them.
00:14:39:25 - 00:15:16:00
The indiscriminate, you know, attacks towards civilians. This wasn't just a military operation towards specific, military points, which I think in an undeniable way would have shifted the calculus, and how people perceive this, this was a systematic attack towards communities, many of which had amazing, peace activists and leftists and liberal Israelis who actually tried their best to help the Gazans or felt the unspoken sense of camaraderie and a connection to the people across the fence, across the wall.
00:15:16:02 - 00:15:51:24
Right. Which is an odd, you know, which is something that that comes up often. And I think that it's important. I know this is certainly not what you what you what you mean, but I think it's worth, saying it out loud is that that that, context of having, you know, all these many, you know, more left or, you know, peace oriented folks who are victims of this just magnifies the tragedy of it in terms and like, the loss of the people who could have who are trying to create a different reality, and also the quote unquote, you know, irony is not the right word, but it doesn't like the indiscriminate attack against
00:15:51:24 - 00:16:10:18
civilians, right? It doesn't. That's the whole point. It doesn't matter of their political rights, their political affiliation. I think that that's where, you know, the broader discourse, you know, and I've been following you for a while. So, I know this is not at all, your position, but this attempt to kind of justify elements of this, for whatever reason, is, is, is missing the point, right?
00:16:10:18 - 00:16:32:05
Which is that there was this, attack which you, you know, identify the named and the pain that you and what you and in the fort not foreshadowing what you knew was going to ensue on the Palestinian side was like, there's the dehumanization and the loss of of of life. And it's such an immense tragedy.
00:16:32:08 - 00:16:49:16
And you were and you were like, that's where you were. That's what the emotional state that you were in precisely. And just like, I don't know, like the I have empathy for human beings losing their lives, like, even if they're Jewish and Israelis, even if they're like, I just I'm a believer in the sanctity of all human life.
00:16:49:16 - 00:17:10:18
And to me, I just couldn't not be in opposition to what was happening. In addition to connecting what was unfolding to the aforementioned in terms of knowing that Hamas wants to basically become a relevant resistance group again and wants to extricate itself from the business of governing Gaza because it couldn't deliver. So, I was horrified by what was happening.
00:17:10:23 - 00:17:32:10
I was horrified by the dehumanization of the hostages. I was horrified by the normalization of Hamas's rhetoric before October 7th. You know, you can talk to a lot of folks, and they'd be like, well, I don't like Hamas, but the occupation, well, I'm not a fan of Hamas, but the blockade, something happened to the masses or to a large number of people, I should say, after October 7th.
00:17:32:12 - 00:18:04:05
Whereas like, actually Hamas is good. Actually, I love Hamas. Like, actually Hamas is wonderful. And this is something that a lot of folks deny how much Hamas is propaganda and narrative has become mainstream, then celebrated as a resist, a form of resistance. And that to me horrified me. That was like, oh my God, like you are. Instead of separating Hamas and their ideology and making them merely a compound of the big picture, they wanted to say Hamas is Gaza, Hamas is resistance, Hamas is Palestinians, Hamas is the Palestinian people.
00:18:04:09 - 00:18:29:05
So that's on one side. But then I was also horrified by and I understand they were there were some horrendous scenes coming out of Gaza with the abuse of the hostages, with the celebrations by a few thousand people. And I understand how that to an outsider audience in and just looking in right after this tragedy that is awful and it triggers people and it does all sorts of things.
00:18:29:06 - 00:18:52:03
I get that and we you should ask me later why did people celebrate? But at the same time, I saw the massive dehumanization and demonization of all Palestinians and being all of them being portrayed as all Hamas, all having participated in what took place on October 7th, all being bloodthirsty animals that just want to kill Jews and Israelis.
00:18:52:06 - 00:19:20:00
And I thought that that was priming global audiences for what was about to unfold, which I knew was going to be a catastrophe of epic proportions. And what I was trying to tell folks in my immediate circles was like, what Hamas just did was provoke the most right-wing Israeli government that is also hated by its a large segment of the Israeli society, the unprecedented, you know, the pro-democracy movement following some of the reforms that were controversial.
00:19:20:02 - 00:19:40:19
It's like basically you just and that's no secret that I am not a fan in the slightest of Prime Minister Netanyahu and his coalition and government. So, in a way, Hamas, through the life jacket to him. And so, it was it was immoral, it was unethical, it was ineffective. It was a disaster. And it was lacking of any strategic depth.
00:19:40:19 - 00:20:15:15
I felt at the time to actually undermine the right-wing forces in Israel. So, I have a question about that, because I think this is I mean, I, I nothing you've said so far is I'm like, you know, either making me clench up or feel defensive. In fact, I agree with, with this analysis. you know, broadly speaking, but and we can get into the minutia, but like that last piece of the, you know, the way you listed the short sightedness, from your perspective and what I, what I'm curious because this is what I think is a is a what I understand or perceived to be a big mismatch between the public
00:20:15:15 - 00:20:36:27
discourse and, and the way you are lumping it in. Right. and what I believe and I could be wrong to be Hamas's true motivations because what you're saying rings true, from my perspective of the horizon that you and I agree on, which is, you know, self-determination for both people and for how we can live side by side by peace.
00:20:36:27 - 00:21:16:20
And the thriving reality of what you said is entirely true. But if someone has a different objective, right. It worked. Absolutely. I mean, and more and more, I mean, and I said at the time, this was how I and I stand by that assessment. Nevertheless, Hamas wasn't thinking, you know, about the strategy and getting a Palestinian state and getting this like Hamas wanted to turn everything upside down to cause maximum chaos, maximum loss of life on both sides because it views Palestinian loss of life as necessary, sacrifice is that fuel the legitimization of Israel and the attacks on Israel.
00:21:16:21 - 00:21:45:22
And basically, Hamas's goal was to create and by the way, when I say Hamas's goal, I think a lot of people don't realize in a way what took place on October 7th was a military coup by Sinwar and Davis and the military wing of Hamas people don't understand that Hamas has is not this monolithic body. There's Hamas, the government, Hamas, the social movement, Hamas, the Politburo, Hamas, the political entity, Hamas, the ideology and most importantly, Hamas, the military wing.
00:21:45:22 - 00:22:09:18
And those are the guys with the guns. Those are the guys that diverted the resources, built the tunnels, like kind of control the underlying tone of Hamas's, ethos and modus operandi. So Sinwar and they've, in a way, mounted a military coup against the political wing of Hamas. Did you this, by the way, and I know, I know all the names of the leaders.
00:22:09:21 - 00:22:52:03
When October 7th happened, most of like 99% of Hamas's political leaders were all outside of Gaza. Yeah. There was not one of them in there. And that's not because they knew this was going to happen. They were gradually basically pushed out and told that when something happens, your voice might be more valuable abroad to represent us, etc. But what it really was, in my view, because other members of Hamas, I think, and we don't hear about that this publicly, but some, some this is assessments, this is intercepts, this is intelligence, etc. actually take issue with like the way things are unfolding and they see a huge risk of all of Hamas's political leaders eventually being
00:22:52:03 - 00:23:36:27
being marginalized, assassinated and irrelevant. They see the stalemate, the inability to translate the military success of October 7th into a political outcome, a political quote, kind of like the military success of the Yom Kippur War by Egypt, was ultimately translated into let's negotiate for peace and the return of the Sinai Sinwar once this perpetual endless war essentially inviting in kind of drawing Israel back into Gaza, that'll fuel an ongoing insurgency, ongoing hardships and suffering and loss of life and killing that would then serve, like rejuvenate Hamas's, whole reason.
00:23:36:27 - 00:24:00:17
Detroit, which is we are a resistance group. And so that's unfortunately something that now as time goes on and as we see that some of the ruthless calculus of some of the Hamas members, leadership rather, and how it's translated with, the intransigence around the cease fire negotiations and the hostage deal or the failure to provide a vision for.
00:24:00:17 - 00:24:19:22
Okay, so you did this. Now what? You know, there's no vision. There's nothing. It's like, well, we want a full Israeli withdrawal. And the, you know, I know a hostage. And, all the prisoners released and the full reconstruction of Gaza. Well, you pretty much mostly had that on October 6th. Like there were no Israeli troops and soldiers inside Gaza.
00:24:19:24 - 00:24:48:25
Gaza was constructed. And yes, it had hardships, yet it had all sorts of problems, but it was light years ahead of where it's at right now. But I want to go back to just the original point and just wrap up the early point of how I found myself, where I'm at, having registered what was unfolding and the disaster that it was going to unleash, having issues with how the pro-Palestine discourse, I mean, was, was immediately shaping up around this issue.
00:24:48:25 - 00:25:20:24
I mean, we had like protests the next day, and it was like in solidarity with Gaza and Palestine, which is fine. Like, I appreciate solidarity, but no recognition of the humanity of the, you know, 11 1100 plus or 1200 plus Israelis that just lost their lives in a way that I thought weakened the pro-Palestine narrative that bolstered it, and then the dehumanization of Palestinians and Gazans and the priming of the masses to get ready for vengeance and revenge.
00:25:20:24 - 00:25:41:10
And I'm not like, I understand that any nation that would have been attacked in that way would have responded. But I felt that there was there was something a bit more that was going to worsen that discourse in a way that we haven't seen in decades. I decided to put myself out there. I decided that I have a background, I have standing.
00:25:41:10 - 00:26:03:20
I grew up in Gaza. I lived it, my parents, my family were there or my dad passed away four years ago. My dad ran, the Jabalia refugee clinic, for UNWRA. My dad worked for UNWRA, my middle brother worked for UNRWA's a doctor, and his wife as well. My brother has been in the international humanitarian sector in Gaza and humanitarian relief.
00:26:03:22 - 00:26:22:04
my, we grew up in, I grew up in Gaza City. My family lived in Gaza City in the north, as is common with a lot of Palestinian homes. we lived in a family building. Each uncle has a floor, because of the just. That's why it's very dense. I've skin in the game. I've.
00:26:22:06 - 00:26:55:11
I know the language, I know the players, I know the space. And I was horrified by all these new entrants, young people, misguided people, mis and ill-informed people or established players and intellectuals and journalists and academe academics and experts that came in with, I think, really bogus analyzes, a horrendous endorsement of, yeah, well, this is the natural result of this and that without really understanding Hamas's true motivations.
00:26:55:15 - 00:27:15:03
So, I started putting myself out there. I had three followers on Twitter. I had a dormant Twitter account like that. I just used to surf and look around. So I started just writing my thoughts and my views and my my opinions. Of course, no one listened the first day or two, but it was strange. Like the algorithm somehow decided, like this guy.
00:27:15:04 - 00:27:36:19
Like maybe, I don't know whether it was keywords, whether it was like, and I got this stupid blue check verification thing which allowed me to write longer form, posts and was and, you know, I remember like the first like that I ever got in the first retweet. And so I started putting myself out there and then there were folks that noticed it.
00:27:36:22 - 00:28:05:23
I had a chance to write for several outlets, including Jewish outlets. My, the first piece that I wrote was for the Forward, and I, that was unfortunately right when my worst fears, I knew that my family, just like everybody in Gaza, would, would, would suffer horrendously. And, the house that I grew up in, where my family lived and there were over 35 people in the building, was struck by an IDF airstrike on October 13th.
00:28:05:26 - 00:28:33:18
my brother and his four kids and wife, survived, and they pushed their way out of the rubble. They came out pretty banged up, but they pushed their way out of the rubble. Lost a, 12 year old niece, and 15 people were, were, badly injured. The house was destroyed by two airstrikes. and then a follow on airstrike in the neighborhood on October 25th killed, my cousin, my, Uncle Riad, who's dad's youngest, brother.
00:28:33:20 - 00:28:58:08
He was a day laborer in Israel in the past, and he was one of the last people that I saw as I was leaving Gaza in 2005. And I've never been back to Gaza since. But one of his I remember vividly his last words to me, and I wrote about this in The Times of Israel. It was like, inshallah, when you come back after the disengagement, things will be better and I'll be working in Israel again, and this House is going to be better than you see it right now.
00:28:58:08 - 00:29:28:06
And he he came out as mushy tissue from under the rubble. 90 days later, my cousin, my first cousin, is, the strike on the October 25th, was thrown out of the building and a piece of concrete landed on her. So she's fully paraplegic right now. And, then on, on on December 14th, a horrendous strike took place in Rafael, where my mom's family lives, and that was my second home.
00:29:28:06 - 00:30:03:12
We were there every weekend. all my aunts and uncles died there. I lost 29 family members in that particular airstrike. children as young as three and a great, great, cousins and nieces, children as young as three and four months old. shredded to pieces. My, cousin, my cousin Yahia, came out headless. My my uncle, Abdullah, who ran the main hospital, and Rafa and saved thousands of lives during the second Intifada.
00:30:03:12 - 00:30:26:16
He he was vaporized, essentially. My, he loved having people over. He, just loved going on picnics to the beach like my uncle, my my my my my, cousin Jackie and I used to play video games, computer video games all the time. My aunt Zainab, who had an open buffet 24 seven. And you never left her house?
00:30:26:18 - 00:30:56:20
she was in her 70s. my my my cousin Hiba, who an only child, my first cousin Hiba, who's an only child and was incredibly sassy and yet was one of the sweetest, funniest people you'd ever meet. And just dozens of others and their children and their loved ones all vaporized in an instant. And I still to this day, have no idea why 31 family members of mine on October 13th, October 25th, and December 14th lost their lives.
00:30:56:23 - 00:31:17:29
I have to live with that for the rest of my life. And this is where my criticism and critique and anger and frustration and and horror with these rally policy with the Israeli military can never go away. I'm never going to not feel that sense of resentment. I say to people that I'm angry. I'm furious, I'm upset, I'm I'm resentful.
00:31:17:29 - 00:31:55:12
I'm all of the above. And yet I still decided that I don't want to be hateful, and I want to break the cycle of incitement, hatred, vengeance, violence, vengeance. Rinse and repeat. Yeah, I wanted to honor their legacy. I wanted to honor their memories by sticking with what I did after October 7th, which is to put out a nuanced, balanced analysis that captures the different details, to expose Hamas, to expose the suffering of the humanitarian conditions, to advocate for pragmatic solutions and visions, but most importantly, to try to call for people to remember their common humanity.
00:31:55:18 - 00:32:23:08
Remember our mutual interest in seeing a way out of this, and to really bring us back to the basics of let's engage, let's not dehumanize each other. Let's disagree respectfully. And those to some people may sound like Kumbaya, but to me it's like, oh my God. Like, let's we've lost the plot here. Like both sides. Then entrenched narratives are so entrenched, literally, people have their trenches dug up with barbed wires and walls, and there's no engagement.
00:32:23:12 - 00:32:44:25
There's no seeing the humanity of the Israelis or vice versa, the humanity of the Gazans who lost their lives. I can be furious at Hamas. I can be angry at them. I can despise them. I can be anti them. But I'm still furious at the fact that these rarely military and Israeli bombs, not Hamas, killed my family members, killed children and women without me knowing why.
00:32:45:01 - 00:33:07:03
Now somebody is going to come back and say, oh, well, there might have been tunnel, there might have been somebody nearby, there might have been whatever. I know my family, I know the area, I know the space I'm was in contact with them. And there is nothing that I have that indicates any viable or justifiable military, objective for why these strikes.
00:33:07:05 - 00:33:37:07
But the reality is, and I think this is important to state all that is besides the point, because even if there was a reason for the attack, you still lost family. And that's the pain that won't go away. And that's an anger that is understood. And, and you know there is nothing that I can say that will or that I would say right to seek you know, justifying that, you know, the only way that I, you know, can can wrap my head around such a thing, you know, and I would never want to be in your shoes in that sense.
00:33:37:07 - 00:34:06:10
Right. God forbid. Is that in and I think this is what you're what you're getting at is like the motivation to end this is because of that. Precisely. Right. In other words, this this ongoing rinse and repeat, cycles of violence have to end, and they're only way they're going to end is and humanizing each other and figuring out how to despite everything all the all the baggage that we inherited our generation, us personally, you know, despite all of that, how do we move forward?
00:34:06:10 - 00:34:31:24
Because it's it's easier, to, to, to focus on that. And it's much harder to be here in this conversation. And I do want to ask you several questions because, you know, and thank you for that. you know, kind of that background, you know, I've been following you for a while, you know, this arc of your, your upbringing in Gaza, coming here to the States and all that, you know, very interesting and inspiring.
00:34:31:26 - 00:34:46:29
And a couple questions came up as, as you're speaking and I want to hear your and, you know, you said I should ask you about the, the celebrations we saw on the street and we'll get there. I don't want to jump there necessarily, because I think that that I mean, we should get there because people have questions they don't understand.
00:34:46:29 - 00:35:13:13
But I want to take a step before that and say, like, how do we like how has it been your experience? growing up? And I'm happy to share, like from my perspective, you know, where this came? you know, has there been, an attempt, to humanize the Israelis and the Jews across the border, as you were growing up?
00:35:13:15 - 00:35:47:07
and then the second piece of that is, how did that influence your experience here in the States, and how did that kind of, you know, that conversation? Because at least from an Israeli perspective. Right. the very narrow exposure that I have is everybody in Gaza, in the West Bank and, you know, in the territories and in like the in the Muslim world or in the Arab world writ large, is is educated to indoctrinated to hate the West and Israel and I, I just don't know, you know what I mean?
00:35:47:07 - 00:36:10:10
Like, I don't actually know. Certainly. So I'm curious. Hear your experience from that perspective. Well, there's, so my platform and my, my efforts are based on the idea that it's possible for multiple truths to be valid at once. there are several elements of what you said that are absolutely valid. And we can talk about the reasons, we can talk about why we can talk about right or wrong.
00:36:10:10 - 00:36:40:23
We can talk about the justifications or lack thereof. But absolutely, there is a certain dominant narrative that believes the Palestinians are perpetual victims of Israel's very existence. And that, unfortunately, not only the existence but the perpetual occupation, the perpetual, violence that the Palestinian people experience and therefore there is no horizon for peace and coexistence with the Israelis.
00:36:40:23 - 00:37:01:02
There is no horizon for humanity to. And this was your but so as I was growing up, this was something that I experienced, particularly when the settlements were still in Gaza, particularly when we did have to go through the checkpoints, particularly when I I'm largely deaf in my left ear because of a bombing that almost killed me. I've written about this in Haaretz.
00:37:01:02 - 00:37:26:26
I've talked about it at nauseum and killed two of my friends and almost killed me and caused me permanent PTSD. So, like, I certainly experience elements of that. I was around a community that was full of stories of somebody arrested, somebody is living in in a horrendous, you know, home in Beit Hanoun by the borders, because they can't build it because the Israeli, D9 bulldozers regularly keep coming back and doing it.
00:37:26:29 - 00:37:52:29
There was quite a bit of that, however, and a massive big, however, in the 1990s, I mean, well, certainly before the Palestinian Authority, Israelis and Palestinians were really, intermingled in a way that most people can't even fathom today. I mean, Israelis could easily access Gaza and the West Bank and and largely vice versa. And Palestinians were all over Israel.
00:37:53:02 - 00:38:21:24
The joke in the 90s from my uncle, from several of the day laborers, than half of Gaza was built by day laborers and their earnings in Israel. The joke in the 90s, particularly around the Oslo years, was that Gazans occupied Israel because of how many Gazans worked in Israel, not just as construction workers, not just as day laborers, but as people with like robust connections to Israelis, to contractors, to factory heads, to offices, to areas, to environments.
00:38:21:27 - 00:38:43:05
And I remember, I mean, I grew up with so many stories of guys working in, in Israel and, you know, talking about, like, how I had this amazing friendship, this amazing connection, the movie Rambo, that when I first saw it with my Uncle Riad, it was on a TV that he had brought back that was given to him by the contractor that was hiring him.
00:38:43:08 - 00:39:15:04
So like amidst the kind of historical and relatively contemporary, say, lack of humanization of the Israeli people and the view of viewing Israelis as, as, you know, there are oppressors and therefore we can't view them as human beings or empathize with their suffering. And we can celebrate their death. Parallel with that, we're also huge numbers of Palestinians who had worked with Israelis, studied in Israel, received treatment in Israel even up to October 7th.
00:39:15:07 - 00:39:35:28
We had 20,000 people that work daily in Israel that had robust relationships. My dad, who was the honorary doctor and he he passed away from, lung cancer. He was helped by a bunch of Israelis for free to receive treatment and had that fight. And in Jerusalem and basically when Covid happened, plus we couldn't finance his treatment. That's when he passed away.
00:39:35:28 - 00:40:03:12
But essentially, we can argue that thanks to nine months worth of of entirely voluntary, support and assistance by a team of Israeli medical and academic professionals, my dad's life was extended by nine months thanks to the humanity of Israelis, and therefore my family and I come from a religious, very, very religious family. And all my, sisters and siblings and aunts and uncles cover their heads with hijabs.
00:40:03:12 - 00:40:28:14
And our committed Muslims. They viewed the Israeli medical teams as human beings. So that's what I'm trying to say is, yes, to the main point, there's a lot of that. But numerous Gazans also had the ability to see the humanity of Israelis. And if given a space and if given a chance and if given an opportunity, there absolutely could and will be more of that.
00:40:28:19 - 00:40:54:29
It's a challenge right now with the destruction of Gaza and what has happened. But I absolutely have faith that this is entirely possible to restore such that both sides can absolutely see their humanity. And I think that's the only path forward. If you ask many Israeli Gazans before October 7th, their aspiration was to get a medical, treatment, permit in Israel or to get a, a work permit.
00:40:54:29 - 00:41:26:29
And in Israel now, growing up in Gaza, again, there is a dominant narrative that says we've been perpetually occupied. Everything that's happening is because Israel has no intention of ever given the Palestinians rights or a state. Is Israel's existence by default means that there can never be a Palestinian state, there can never be our presence, and therefore comes somebody like Hamas and the Islamist narrative that capitalize on that and say so.
00:41:26:29 - 00:41:47:24
Therefore, armed resistance is the only path forward. And instead of looking at, you know, like the PLO for all of their issues, and Arafat, I'm certainly not a fan, but he made a courageous decision and he didn't follow through with it towards the end, to renounce violence and to renounce and to acknowledge that, yes, we've done that, been there, done that.
00:41:47:27 - 00:42:10:04
And the only path forward is through a negotiated settlement. And I think what happened with Arafat, I mean, that was a true leadership moment, in the same way that Sadat swam against the current, told people what they didn't want to hear, not what they want to hear. So that's what a leader is versus a representative. Arafat in this narrow window did precisely that.
00:42:10:04 - 00:42:36:29
And unfortunately, he didn't have a chance to persist because of the assassination of Rabin. But also he tried to contain Hamas instead of confronting them instead of yes, he confronted them. He put some of their leaders in jail, but he tried to contain them and then later on ultimately tried to use them as a leverage card, as a negotiation, point or tactic, if you will, with Israel to obtain greater concessions.
00:42:37:01 - 00:43:00:09
And that backfired when he basically decided to do the Second Intifada to launch the Second Intifada, using Ariel Sharon's visit and September 28th of 2000. I was in Gaza when that took place. And then Hamas was like, oh, well, thank you very much. Like they moved, swooped right in with their suicide bombings, with all of their attacks. They saw an opening and the beast had grown too great.
00:43:00:09 - 00:43:34:27
And Arafat couldn't, couldn't, couldn't control them anymore. So that's when Israel invaded after the massacre, the Passover massacre in Netanya in 2002, in the Park Hotel, at the Park Hotel, when the massive invasion of the West Bank took place, when Arafat was, was, was seized and surrounded. So that's I think unfortunately, that was the missed opportunity to get to basically, it was a parachuted peace agreement without the kind of infrastructure at the societal level, the bottom up approach to humanize these rallies and see peace as a necessary evolution.
00:43:35:04 - 00:44:01:24
So it's, you know, it's it's. I have to that is frustrating to hear. because from the Israeli perspective, you know, I grew up, we grew up in the same time period, more or less, a couple of years, I think, ahead of you. But substantially in the same era, you know, the perspective of, like, this is the Israeli narrative, which has plenty of holes in it, of course, and inconsistencies and problems, of course.
00:44:01:24 - 00:44:23:15
Right. But the self story is we've always tried and we've always been rebuffed. And what I'm hearing here is that a lot of internal, issues. Right. And who's vying for tell me about approach because I don't I'm still corrective among I am not under the impression but I don't under the impression I'm being I'm being very diplomatic.
00:44:23:15 - 00:44:41:27
I don't believe that Hamas is interested in creating a lasting peace in any form. True, true, true. And I think that the PLO, in its best days and its best permutations, if it could remove the noise and some of the corruption, is probably working towards that direction, at least it has in the past, and I hope to see that more in the future.
00:44:41:29 - 00:45:00:14
and because of that internal thing, Israel has been, you know, you know, when I came back in, from Camp David, like, there's no partner, right? His infamous, you know, statement, he probably didn't say that exact word. Right. But, you know, that that kind of stuck in the Israeli, psyche of, like, look, we've been trying knowing there's really interested, you know, we left Gaza.
00:45:00:16 - 00:45:22:04
They destroyed every piece of infrastructure that was left behind for, you know, the airport. You have to we want to rebuild it. There was one right there. Like this is the narrative, right? Whether or not it's exactly precise factually, of course, is, you know, you know, there's conversations around that. But the point being like, how do we, you know, how do we talk about moving beyond these preconceived, entrenched notions of the narrative?
00:45:22:06 - 00:45:49:15
Right. How did it happen that, you know, you know, that you're you are able to, you know, and of course, there's a there's a personal kind of, bias towards pragmatism and hope. And, you know, the vision that's those are qualities that not everybody holds. But I do think that there are actual steps that we can take in order to at least create, try to, you know, the travesties that are happening now that will end, hopefully.
00:45:49:17 - 00:46:13:10
And once we start talking about rebuilding, how do we create this groundwork for more? Absolutely. And I have taken it upon myself to understand the Israeli narrative and to really hear it. I mean, and yes, there are elements of it that are correct. There are elements that are entirely, in my view, incorrect or have holes or manipulated. But I absolutely am aware of this narrative.
00:46:13:10 - 00:47:00:04
And in all honesty, there are elements of it that I absolutely agree with in the sense that I think there were numerous opportunities missed. I mean, let's talk about the fact that between 1948 and 1967, why wasn't a provisional Palestinian state established in the West Bank and Gaza and East Jerusalem? Right. and it was instead the Jordanian administration and an Egyptian, after Egypt negotiated with the, the Israelis in the 70s, after the Yom Kippur War, Sadat gave Arafat multiple opportunities to say, like here, like, let's do a joint deal where we could evacuate the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and put a Palestinian say, like, the more time progresses, the more you
00:47:00:04 - 00:47:26:26
know, and and the more resistance that takes place, the more Palestinian land is lost and the more opportunities are squandered. Between 1948 and 67, in the 70s was Sadat and then unfortunately with Hamas like and what makes them exceptionally, in my view, nefarious is that they sabotaged the Oslo peace process. The pressured Arafat. Basically, Arafat was like, I would be dead if I accepted this Barak deal in 2000.
00:47:26:29 - 00:48:00:25
They squandered the opportunity. Imperfect yet unique opportunity of the 2005 withdrawal of Israeli settlements to turn Gaza into the beating heart of a future Palestinian state, to turn Gaza, most importantly, into a role model for what an occupation free West Bank would look like. The abuse, the democratic electoral process in 2006, using the Oslo Peace framework that created a Palestinian governance, governance and the system for elections to undermine Oslo and to undermine the two state solution and to undermine coexistence.
00:48:00:27 - 00:48:22:01
And then all the repeated wars, all the squandering of the resources, all the wasting of opportunities. I mean, Hamas could have come out on October 6th and said, you know what? Actually, we're having a change of heart. We're really interested in a two state solution. And like that, that, I mean, they could have done it in a way that that would have created a splash as big as October 7th.
00:48:22:03 - 00:48:51:09
So in a way, I try to like it's not just the pragmatism, and I am ruthlessly pragmatic because I actually care about my people. I don't want to see I want this to be Gaza's final war. This has to be Gaza's final war. We cannot do this perpetually. But I actually have taken the time to look back at the history, to cut through the the noise, and to realize that the Palestinian people have been pawns of multiple ideologies and political players and structures.
00:48:51:12 - 00:49:27:13
The Palestinian people have been horribly misled. The Palestinian people have been misinformed and manipulated into missing these, and well into believing that those missed opportunities are solely a function of Israel not wanting peace, not wanting coexistence, not wanting to give the Palestinian sovereignty and independence. And I'll be honest with you, I do think there are elements within Israel's society, certainly in the last few decades, that would subscribe to that belief that there's never going to be a Palestinian state, the messianic, nihilistic, right wing folks, whatever.
00:49:27:13 - 00:49:54:27
Fine. But there's enough of it. They're there to work with. Yeah, they're capitalizing on this moment to to bolster that position, which has been marginalized for decades in Israel. Precisely. I think that's unfortunate. Like, that's an unfortunate reality. You know, when I was when I was growing up in the second Intifada, you know, I remember very clearly how, these I remember, first of all, in elementary school hearing about, you know, the Goldstone massacre and so on and being, like, mortified on Purim.
00:49:54:27 - 00:50:11:16
Like, what? Like I was a kid. I didn't fully comprehend it. I was like, what? Like what is what is what is this? Right? I mean, I we grew up, you know, there was the, the, the Gulf War. There were, you know, the leftovers of the first Intifada when I was a kid. And like, I was like, this is not what we do.
00:50:11:17 - 00:50:27:20
Like what the right. But that was like a, you know, an element that started like fomenting. And then with the second Intifada were Israelis my age, grew up as kids in Oslo. Right. And were promised, you know, there's a song in 73, you know, we're the children of, you know, the winter of 73 are not familiar with this.
00:50:27:20 - 00:50:45:23
So I'm not quite sure. The whole streaming solution, it's a song about how like we were promised peace. Right. It's a, it's a self-critique of Israel like you promised us. And then there was this massive war and and and the children of Oslo. Right. My generation were now people in their, you know, late 30s, 40s were in leadership positions, were like, well, we tried Oslo, right?
00:50:45:23 - 00:51:09:24
We tried to disengagement and look where we are. And I think that that, that and those right wing, nihilistic messianic elements are feeding off of that. I remember them coming to my high school and trying to recruit us to be activists in these parties, you know, and it was like, you know, of course I just stood in a in a, you know, in a, a funeral of a friend.
00:51:10:01 - 00:51:47:03
Right. And like, obviously, that was the natural progression. And I think that that's like the, the cynicism of these extreme elements who are trying, you know, in they have a different goal. And I'm like, what? So, like, what's the end game? What's the end game? You know, I know what the end game is on our side, you know, which I'm like, not obviously in favor of like how do we how do we think about this and explain to people the distinction between Hamas and and the Palestine people, which you're essentially being manipulated, used, misled, in a way that's been entirely detrimental to their cause of self-determination.
00:51:47:07 - 00:52:15:15
Certainly. And I think one of the most challenging concepts that I try to communicate, and I am both compassionate and empathetic to why people are resistant to adopting this. But at the same time, I think it's the only path forward is even in the framework of being dispossessed and displaced and and occupied people. I think there's a degree of agency, accountability and self-responsibility that is missing, unfortunately.
00:52:15:15 - 00:52:41:23
And and it's not that the Palestinian people are incapable of of having agency or holding themselves accountable, is that they've been told and including now by the horrendous allies, I think, in the West and in a lot of the within the pro-Palestine movement that you can do no wrong. You are understood for why you chose October 7th, why you chose the intifada, why you chose this, why you chose that.
00:52:41:28 - 00:53:01:16
And believe me, I mean, I'm focusing on the Palestinian side, not because I don't think there's injustices on the Israeli side, and not because, like, and I can dedicate a whole podcast to just only exclusively focusing on how Palestinians and the likes of Hamas have fed off of the settlement expansions and what's going on in the West Bank.
00:53:01:18 - 00:53:30:23
And before October 7th that year was one of the deadliest in the West Bank without Hamas ostensibly being there. We have the other Janine Brigades and some of the other guys, but still, that said to me, I focus on the Palestinian side because I still believe strongly and firmly that within the margin, like we have a margin for maneuvering that starts with self accountability Agency and figuring out who are we as a people, what do we want?
00:53:30:24 - 00:53:58:00
Like what is the goal of the Palestinian national project at this point? Unfortunately, the conversation has devolved since October 7th to where it's like one state dismantlement of Israel, dismantlement of Zionism. And it, like the needle has moved from ending the occupation, peace and coexistence, two states just resolution to this maximalist kind of unrealistic, point of view that is often propagated by folks in the diaspora.
00:53:58:04 - 00:54:18:04
Because if you talk to many in Palestine and in Gaza, them they they'll tell you that, like, we know there's not going to be the return of 5 million Palestinians into mainland Israel's the right of return. I mean, it sounds nice to have those stories around the Nakba every May 15th, and we will talk about it and we'll show the keys and the grandmas with the keys.
00:54:18:04 - 00:54:43:19
And, you know, one day we'll return. But there's a weird pragmatism among some people in Palestine who are living there, who have skin in the game in a way that's not present with the pro-Palestine folks in the Western world or in the diaspora or in the Arab world, whether they be Palestinians or their allies, pro-Palestine allies. So agency and accountability and taking responsibility for our actions.
00:54:43:21 - 00:55:03:22
Learning from the history. I'm very forward looking. I don't like to be stuck on history. I understand history, I learn it, I study it, but I almost like I want to reset, I want to do I like the great reset, you know, between the Palestinians and Israelis to say, like everything there's before this horror and everything that took place.
00:55:03:24 - 00:55:23:08
And then there's what are we going to do? Forward time is not on our side. The Arabs are moving on. The world is not going to pump another penny into Gaza before knowing that this is the final war. Hamas cannot be allowed to continue to hijack the Palestinian narrative. And we need to understand that there's not going to be the elimination of Israel.
00:55:23:08 - 00:55:45:29
There's not going to be the South Africa model of sanctions and boycott, divestment. Like, it's funny, the same people that tell you sanctions, I mean, and I believe in targeted sanctions, by the way, against like the settlements and against the enterprises, like I am. But this sanctions, this like entire boycotting of anything and everything Israeli, an academic boycott and artistic boycott.
00:55:45:29 - 00:56:08:11
And don't talk to Israelis and don't talk to the Zionist, I think is incredibly detrimental because we need to work with the Israelis. We need to work with the Zionists and the center and the center right and the right wing and the left wing and the liberal Zionist. So we need, in my opinion, to do a deep, reflective kind of soul searching to figure out what is it that we want to do, what is it?
00:56:08:14 - 00:56:26:01
And we haven't had a speech to that for that, in part because a lot of people are stuck in the day to day reality in Gaza, in the West Bank. It's like it's like I want to give them the benefit of the doubt that they're so caught up in. Just getting through a checkpoint takes me two hours. I'm not going to be thinking about soul searching.
00:56:26:08 - 00:56:51:07
I'm going to be thinking about how do I get to my job to feed my family? Fine. That's where maybe the leadership can have a role in the diaspora community can give a hand up to our community in Gaza, in the West Bank, inside of Israel, to decide who are we as a people? What do we want? What have we done from 48 to today that has prevented us from finding from getting a state of our own?
00:56:51:07 - 00:57:13:28
We had multiple opportunities. The 2008 thing with Olmert, because Abbas just wanted to see, I mean, okay, fine, I want to see him out. But instead of walking away from it, be like, hey, like we have a proposal. I want to see more details like, like time and again and again. And unfortunately, yes, we've empowered we've made it easier for the right wingers in Israel to claim the narratives that they do.
00:57:13:29 - 00:57:40:25
We've made it easier for folks in the in the messianic settlement community to say, we can't ever repeat the Gaza mistake. Like, I don't agree with that position, but we also have to be pragmatic enough to understand that what replaces the occupation I want, I'm anti occupation. I want it to end, but you got to understand, especially after October 7th, the Israeli people are as part of their trauma, as part of their past experiences.
00:57:41:01 - 00:58:15:21
We have to answer for what is this going to be another base for Iran to move in its militants and have rockets shoot at Netanya and Nahariya and now the cities, or is this going to be actually us, an opportunity for us to engage in nation building, to make the West Bank vibrant and developed so that the refugees in Lebanon, in Syria and in Jordan, those who are living in horrendous, actual apartheid like conditions can want to are going to want to come back to a Palestinian state in the West Bank.
00:58:15:23 - 00:58:32:04
And that's my my thing around the right of return is, yes, we need to have conversations. We need to think of what does that look like? And the Palestinian I think there needs to be an accountability, whether it was the people that were pushed out that was actually my dad's family on on there sat on my dad's. They come from Rehovot.
00:58:32:05 - 00:58:54:26
My grandparents were physically pushed out on my mom's side. They left in anticipation of a war or something. Or the Arabs said, get out of the way. So there's a combination, so let's have a conversation on that. But let's also be realistic that there's going to be we need to reframe the narrative around the right of return. So that's what I'm trying to do with plans, with with talking, with rhetoric.
00:58:55:03 - 00:59:21:22
And it's difficult, but I think it's entirely feasible and possible because I really, genuinely believe that at the end of the day, most people in the West Bank and Gaza, they know that Israel isn't going anywhere. They know Israel is going to be destroyed. They see their future as being intricately linked with robust relationships with Israelis. Unfortunately, the conversation in the diaspora is entirely different because those are the people that don't have skin in the game.
00:59:21:26 - 00:59:40:02
Those are the people for whom Palestine is either this academic thing and or a history book, and they've read a book or two and they look at South Africa or, or for the younger ones, it's a thing they see on Twitter and Instagram and TikTok. And I'm not belittling the sincerity of a lot of pro-Palestine people. They're just misguided.
00:59:40:02 - 00:59:57:09
They don't have skin in the game, and it's easy to advocate for resistance when you're not facing the consequences. So I mean, this is all incredibly helpful and inspiring. I'm noticing our time. We're gonna have to end this segment very soon. I want to share one thought we really have. Like, it's going to be very quick. Okay?
00:59:57:13 - 01:00:14:09
We didn't cover. We didn't talk about the celebrations in the street. That's for a different conversation. And but we talked enough about the dehumanization piece of that. So I feel like we're we're good on that. And also if you want I mean we can withhold and like I can make myself available to come back and do another. Yeah, yeah.
01:00:14:10 - 01:00:35:09
Let's do that. But but before we end this one, I just want to say this is something, as you're speaking that occurred to me, you know. This might sound offensive, but you'll you'll hear it. And I think you might appreciate it. What? I think, you know, when you talk about, like, self, like accountability, self-determination, the Zionist movement in, in its core.
01:00:35:16 - 01:01:02:05
Right. Not it's it's different evolutions and it's how it grew and it's based or you know, it's original was a deep critique of the state of the Jewish people in diaspora, stateless, you know, self-determination, being kicked out of countries, being oppressed and, and brutalized and, it was the Jewish attempt for self-determination, nationalism. But from a perspective like, how do we solve and end this thing?
01:01:02:11 - 01:01:22:25
Right. But the first step, you know, there was a lot of external, you know, bridge building and Hertzel went to different leaders in the world and trying to, you know, from a diplomatic perspective. But the first step, I think, that the Zionist went through back then in the movement was this idea of actually the solution is from within and this idea of self-determination.
01:01:22:25 - 01:01:38:14
So when we talk about like a national movement for, for the Palestinians, right. It's not going to come from, you know, you know, the way you're describing it, this is what I'm hearing. It's not going to come. Yes, and come from the support from outsiders. But the first step is recognizing that the suffering nation is from within a sense of accountability and responsibility.
01:01:38:17 - 01:02:06:23
Yes, of course, there's all these injustices are endless, right? But until we are the ones who say, wait a second, we're actually the masters of our destiny, it's not going to happen precisely 1,000%. And that again, is something like, to me, that's empowering. That's like taking control of your own destiny. And instead to a lot of, you know, these pro-Palestine folks across the world, it's like, oh no, no, no, that's you're you're blaming the victims.
01:02:06:23 - 01:02:36:14
Like you can't expect the victims to have any accountability. They're just reacting. We have to understand where they're coming from. And I actually think that is so damaging to the Palestinian people and so harmful to their just an urgent aspirations. So I absolutely like basically I want to create the like like what I want to create is basically a rejuvenated Palestinian narrative that starts from within, that doesn't wait for the Arabs to come on.
01:02:36:16 - 01:02:55:25
I mean, yes, we need international support partners. We need support. But it doesn't work for the Arabs or the international community or for the Israelis to give us, like what it is that we want. Because first we need to actually realistically define what it is that we want. It cannot be the normalization of Israel that must be confronted, that must be challenged.
01:02:55:25 - 01:03:17:03
It cannot be this idea that somehow we're going to go back to how things used to be on 1948, and some of that will require assessing history. Some of that will require challenging some of these fallacies or these narratives, and some of that will require saying, yes, I understand that is awful, what took place, but we need to move forward and save what can be saved.
01:03:17:09 - 01:03:47:24
So it starts from within. It builds out a rejuvenated narrative that is steeped in pragmatism, realism and achievability and what's attainable. But it also kind of takes us beyond, like it redefines the Palestinian people as kind of like this. I mean, and some of your listeners might be like, oh, well, what makes the Palestinian people in the Palestinian identity, there are people that don't believe the Palestinians existed, or there are people that believe, you know, the Palestinian identity was strengthened after 1948.
01:03:47:24 - 01:04:12:05
They called themselves Palestinians before. But after 1948, as is the case with any people that face displacement or whatever, like the Palestinians are people they exist. You can argue about what they were called that to the point exactly. There's millions of people right now who identify this way, and they have a natural right for self-determination. And that's not that's that's irrespective of, you know, the permission of others around them.
01:04:12:05 - 01:04:44:21
But that's internalizing the agency and responsibility as a community, people. And this point is important because there are, unfortunately, a lot of folks that don't acknowledge the Palestinian people as a people. And I also see some who try to like, overcompensate by doing the like. Jesus was Palestinian like, Moses was almost Palestinian like. Give me a break. You know, so the Palestinian people redefining it as having heritage and connection to the land, but we are more than just simply this immediate like, like like, sorry, let me say this again.
01:04:44:24 - 01:05:02:11
We are a people that are bigger than just this identity that is expressed in the land that we are going to have. Yes, the land is part of our identity, but we need to actually formulate that so that I can be Palestinian in other parts of the world so that I can be I am an American. I'm proud to be an American.
01:05:02:11 - 01:05:20:24
I love the United States. I view myself as a I mean, this is my home. This is where I belong. But that Palestinian heritage is so strong and robust within me. It's what motivates me to be, you know, like to be connected to the space. So in other words, I don't personally want I mean, I would love to visit Gaza.
01:05:20:24 - 01:05:38:25
I'd love to visit the West Bank, but I don't have this sense of like, I want to go to Renovo to where my parents were pushed out of, or Ashkelon Hamam, where they were pushed out in 1948. That is not how I express my identity and my right as a Palestinian to exist, and being the descendant of refugees.
01:05:38:27 - 01:06:14:19
So like allowing for different spaces for what it is to be a Palestinian, even if it means we're not going to have the entirety of the land that our ancestors once had. And reframing also the relationship with Israelis. I mean, for some people, like it might start with tolerance, but there's immense opportunities and options for us to I mean, these really people can be allies and helping us with the land, helping us develop economically, helping our society, like bolster different anchors around healthcare, around civil society organizations, around democratic governance.
01:06:14:22 - 01:06:37:28
So I view it as like a multi-tiered approach for viewing coexistence, not just as a necessity, but as an opportunity. Oh for sure. And so I very much so. I'm hopeful that with the right framing, with the right anchoring, with just repeating the points over and over in the midst of the horrors, I mean, I wouldn't be doing this if I thought it was entirely hopeless.
01:06:38:05 - 01:06:58:09
And every day I have to renew my commitment to hope and peace and coexistence like it's a daily struggle. But I'm absolutely hopeful that enough Palestinians are questioning a lot of the narratives around Hamas, around the armed resistance. A lot of them are afraid. A lot of them don't want to speak out. Those poles that are ridiculous there have some accuracies to them.
01:06:58:12 - 01:07:35:18
But imagine being in Gaza right now and somebody asks you, what do you think about Hamas on October 7th? And Israel and Hamas agents are everywhere. And Hamas, you know, is an authoritarian regime, just like in Russia and Iran and North Korea, like, imagine a poll coming out of North Korea. So I just I want to close on a hopeful note, if you will, that this a combination of those who have long opposed Hamas in its ideology, those who have long believed in pragmatism and a pragmatic coexistence and a pragmatic path forward, those who are experiencing the brunt of the destruction and the horror in Gaza.
01:07:35:18 - 01:08:04:14
They're furious at Israel, but they're also incredibly angry and resentful of Hamas for putting them in this position. The totality of those attitudes, there are seeds there that with the right leadership, the right framing and the like, the right opportunity, that like giving them a proposal, giving them a vision, giving them. Here's step one, two, three. I think enough Palestinians exist in the Palestinian territories who want to see a different path forward, but we have to empower.
01:08:04:14 - 01:08:23:27
And I hate this term, but the moderates, like we have to give wins to the moderate Palestinians who regularly point to what happened in the West Bank. You know, unfortunately, with what makes Netanyahu so nefarious is that he used Hamas to undermine peace with with the West Bank or to expand settlements. And we can talk about the corruption of the PA.
01:08:23:28 - 01:08:43:08
We can talk about the missed opportunity with the 2008 Olmert plan. But nevertheless, what happened in the West Bank while Hamas was in control in Gaza, makes many Palestinians say, oh, well, you see, there was no Hamas there. And look what they did there. So like, we have to somehow put that in context for the Palestinians, but also reverse it and provide an alternative.
01:08:43:11 - 01:09:10:04
But I'm optimistic that there's a there there. Otherwise I wouldn't continuously put myself out there. I'm going to thank you so much for coming. I really appreciate your time. This has been inspiring. it gave me a lot of hope. just to be continued, I know I'm abruptly left to cut this, but we, you know, it's it's, it's really just the beginning, and I'm a huge fan of what you're doing, and, you know, we need more of these types of conversations, on a community level as well.
01:09:10:06 - 01:09:32:15
And because, ultimately, you know, whatever unfolds in that region in Israel and then hopefully will become, Palestine, is really there for our, our people, you know, the future generations. And, you know, I totally agree with what you're saying in terms of not only from a perspective of necessity, but really an opportunity for what the Middle East can look like.
01:09:32:17 - 01:09:42:03
when we recognize what partnership and prosperity can, can actually look like. So thank you again. Absolutely. Thank you. And I look forward to our next conversation. Thank you. Awesome. All
