Podcast Episode 26: The Battle for Jewish Identity on Campus - Roundtable Talk
Host Rabbi Amitai Fraiman is joined by two guests involved with Jewish life at UC Berkeley: Rav Maya Zinkow, Campus Rabbi, and Dr. Masua Sagiv, Koret Visiting Assistant Professor of Jewish and Israel Studies and Senior Faculty member at the Shalom Hartman Institute.
In this roundtable discussion, all three reflect on their recent visits and experiences in Israel and explore the emotional and political divide between the realities on the ground in Israel and the discourse in the U.S., particularly on college campuses.
The conversation dives into the challenges Jewish students face navigating campus life, where progressive movements often clash with Zionism during a time where social media amplifies misinformation and extremist narratives, complicating conversations about Israel, and leaving students caught between popular opinion and their Jewish identity. Rav Maya and Dr. Sagiv discuss the delicate balance of providing pastoral care to students while also encouraging critical thinking on complex issues like Israel, Zionism, and Jewish identity. This episode offers a thoughtful discussion on the intersection of Jewish education, campus activism, and the future of Jewish identity in both Israel and the diaspora.
About our guests:
Rav Maya Zinkow
Rabbi Maya Zinkow is the Campus Rabbi at UC Berkeley Hillel. She received rabbinic ordination and a Master’s in Jewish Women and Gender Studies at the Jewish Theological Seminary as a Wexner Graduate Fellow. While studying at JTS, Maya served as a rabbinic intern at the Columbia/Barnard Hillel and at Romemu on the Upper West Side. Before starting her rabbinic studies, Maya graduated from Barnard College with a degree in English literature and creative writing, and followed her love of text to the Pardes Institute of Jewish Studies, where she learned Torah for two years and now serves as summer faculty. You can follow her on instagram at @ravmayaz.
Dr. Masua Sagiv
Dr. Masua Sagiv is the Koret Visiting Assistant Professor of Jewish and Israel Studies at the Helen Diller Institute at U.C. Berkeley School of Law, and a Senior Faculty member of the Shalom Hartman Institute based in the San Francisco Bay Area. She writes and teaches on questions of law and nationality, religion and state, anti-Semitism, Jewish peoplehood, and dynamics of change in Israeli society. Prior to moving to the Bay Area, Masua was the Academic Director of the Menomadin Center for Jewish and Democratic Law at Bar-Ilan University, and taught at the Schools of Law at Bar-Ilan University and Tel-Aviv University. To hear more from Dr. Sagiv, listen to Episode 5 of the Z3 Project Podcast.
Episode Transcript
00:01:20:23 - 00:01:33:29
Hello and welcome to the Z3 podcast. I am Amitai Fraiman, the director of the Z3 Project. This is a special episode, trying out a new format. Typically, I have in-depth one-on-one conversations, but this time we brought in two very special guests, dear friends of mine. I'll introduce them in a second. The idea is to replicate the energy from our conference, where people agree on some things, disagree on others, and dig deeper into areas that are top of mind.
00:01:34:01 - 00:01:53:19
We’re talking about the mood in Israel post-war, how we perceive ourselves as educators, Jewish professionals, and members of the community. But I won’t get ahead of myself. I'll introduce our two guests. It's an honor to have Dr. Masua Sagiv, Koret visiting Assistant Professor of Jewish Law and Israel Studies at the Helen Diller Institute at UC Berkeley, and a scholar in residence at the Shalom Hartman Institute.
00:02:16:25 - 00:02:51:26
We’re also joined by Rav Maya Zinkow, the campus rabbi at UC Berkeley Hillel. This was a really special conversation. The three of us just got back from Israel on separate trips that likely overlapped in time. We discussed the personal experience of being there, how different it is from what we’re experiencing here in the U.S., and moments of growth, pain, and feeling at home, even though it's not the safest place right now. Being in Israel brings emotional alignment and the feeling of being among people who understand the complexity of our identity as Jews and how we feel about the world.
00:02:51:26 - 00:03:10:25
Even though this is a difficult time for our people and community, recording this podcast 300 days into the war, many hostages are still not back. There's a lot of pain and suffering everywhere, but conversations like this give me hope. They show that we have dedicated leaders who care about the well-being of our people and want to see us flourish.
00:03:10:28 - 00:03:33:23
It demonstrates that we can come together across differences for productive conversation. Above all, it gives me solace, reminding me that we can rebuild what was lost and even add a new layer to the ongoing project of the Jewish people. I hope you find this conversation, with its highs and lows, a source of hope as we move forward.
00:03:34:00 - 00:04:04:19
Thank you for joining us for this podcast with Dr. Masua Sagiv and Rav Maya Zinkow. This is the Z3 Project podcast, and I’m Amitai Fraiman. Please join us on our various channels: LinkedIn, X, Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, and sign up for emails. Stay tuned for information about our conference on November 17th.
00:04:26:26 - 00:04:29:02
Thank you for joining us. Have a great listen.
00:04:29:02 - 00:04:46:09
Welcome to the Z3 podcast. I’m very excited about this new format. Typically, we’ve done over 20 one-on-one episodes, but this is an opportunity to have a more dynamic conversation. Let’s see how it unfolds.
00:05:03:06 - 00:05:30:26
We initially started preparing for this episode at one point, but time has passed, and things are different now. We were all in Israel, and today marks 300 days since the war began. Hostages still haven’t been freed. I’d like to start with your personal observations in this moment.
00:05:54:02 - 00:06:23:26
I just landed back from Tel Aviv yesterday, and what’s clearer to me than ever is the significant gap between the lived experience of Israelis and Palestinians and how people perceive it in the U.S.
00:07:00:07 - 00:07:21:15
Every time I go to Israel, I leave behind the rhetoric and enter into the real. It’s powerful. The gap between how we talk about Israel here on campus, in the mainstream Jewish community, or in left-wing movements, and the reality of Israel is massive. That’s one of the big questions I’m sitting with.
00:07:21:17 - 00:07:47:04
How do we teach this generation of young Jews to have a relationship with Israel that acknowledges both its beauty and its harsh truths? That’s the question on my mind, having just returned to the Bay Area.
00:07:47:07 - 00:08:19:22
There’s the movement of leaving the rhetoric behind when you land in Israel, and then there’s the challenge of bringing that reality back to the U.S. How do you bring back the real when American college students’ experiences are so different from those of the average Israeli? It feels like a huge gap, and I’ve been aware of it for a long time. It’s only grown wider since October 7th. After being in Israel for the last month, I feel it more than ever. There are gaps on so many different levels, and that’s where I’m sitting right now.
00:08:19:24 - 00:08:38:06
For you, going back home was the first time since...?
No, no, we were there in the winter for a quick visit with family and friends. We just got back after a month, and what struck me as soon as we landed was seeing so many Israeli flags. It was a feeling of, “Wow, not everyone thinks I’m the bad guy here.”
00:09:13:24 - 00:09:54:17
Even though I’m center-left and it’s not exactly the conversation, there was a sense over the past ten months that being Israeli here felt overwhelming. Beyond the pain and mourning, there was also guilt—guilt for not being there with my family and friends, for not experiencing what they’re going through. My mother told me it feels like the days leading up to the Six-Day War, where you’re just waiting for something to happen. There’s the guilt and also the sense of isolation—some of it imagined, some of it not. There’s a vulnerability in public spaces, especially on campus.
00:09:54:17 - 00:10:15:29
When I walk around, it feels like being constantly on edge, waiting for something to happen. For example, walking to synagogue on Shabbat with my family, I noticed a woman with a dog who kept glancing at us. I was waiting for her to start yelling, but instead, she wished us “Shabbat Shalom.” That sums up the constant tension—you’re always on your toes, feeling guilty for not being where you think you should be.
00:10:16:01 - 00:10:45:07
Going back to Israel highlighted both the guilt and isolation. But seeing the flags and feeling like I was at home, even for a moment, lowered my stress levels. At the same time, being here in the Bay Area, I’ve also built a sense of home. I’m not entirely at home in Israel, and I’m not fully at home here either. It really raises the question: Where is my home? Do I have a home at all in this world?
00:10:45:10 - 00:11:07:27
You’re both on campus in Berkeley, with different roles. Maya, you’re the rabbi at Hillel, and Masua, you’re an academic at Berkeley and Hartman. There’s a difference in being raised in Israel versus the U.S., and there’s a difference in your experiences on campus. Berkeley has always been in the eye of the storm, and I imagine these days are no different. What’s happening on campus, and how are you both approaching it from where you’re sitting?
00:11:07:29 - 00:13:53:15
I think one thing I’ve been reflecting on, being there in Israel versus being here and gearing up for the new semester, is the difference in conversations. When I was in Israel, whether I was talking to politically involved friends or soldiers going back to base, I could just be in the conversation. I didn’t need to posture or make myself palatable to the other person. Whether we agreed or disagreed, I didn’t have to prove my right to be in that conversation or to be human. I’m going to miss that—being able to have real, intense conversations without needing to justify myself.
00:13:53:17 - 00:14:22:08
We had a Shabbat lunch recently where we were having an intense conversation, and I joked that it could have been a panel discussion. There were native Israelis, people who made aliyah, and visitors from the U.S., all across the political spectrum. There was a feeling of ease, knowing we could disagree without it being a threat to anyone. That’s what I’ll miss as I prepare to go back to campus. The challenge is how to bring that feeling back, where we can just be who we are without having to posture to fit in.
00:14:22:08 - 00:14:42:15
A lot of what I’ve been dealing with is combating the posturing that students feel they have to do to be legible. They can just be who they are. I think that’s a big part of the challenge on campus—students feel like they need to adopt certain identities or viewpoints just to fit in, and we’re trying to show them that they don’t have to do that.
00:14:42:15 - 00:15:01:25
As a rabbi, it’s about balancing education with pastoral care. Last year, a lot of what I did was meet students where they are, being a safe place for them to come cry, ask questions, and be confused. Many students walked into my office and said, “Please just tell me what to believe.” My response was, “I bless you to stay confused—that’s exactly where you should be.”
00:15:01:27 - 00:16:32:05
So I’ve been thinking about how to translate the educational message I want to bring, which is centered on peace, coexistence, and the models of those ideals, even though they are the minority in Israel and among Palestinians. How do we bring that into a space that is also pluralistic? How do I bring an educational vision that may have a particular political bent into a community where we meet students wherever they are? That’s one of the biggest challenges I’m facing right now.
00:16:32:05 - 00:17:01:14
It’s about finding a sense of rootedness and authenticity that allows us to rise above the noise and rhetoric of social media, which is really deteriorating students’ ability to think critically for themselves. Maya, you’ve been dealing with this from a different angle—as an Israeli academic, it’s an entirely different ballgame. How have you been navigating this, and how has it evolved, especially in terms of how students are experiencing these challenges?
00:17:01:17 - 00:18:59:08
I’m in a weird spot because, yes, I’m an academic, but I’m not tenured at Berkeley. I’m still a visiting professor, so I have more freedom to say and do what I want without the same institutional constraints, which gives me a lot of power. I’m in touch with students more than I am with the administration, which I think allows me to hear more voices. But one thing I can say is that Jewish students are not doing well right now, and they have good reason for that. The campus is divided. While not everyone thinks the same way, what you see outside is overwhelmingly one-sided.
00:18:59:11 - 00:19:28:21
Every walkway on campus gives the message that if you’re a Zionist, you’re a criminal, a war criminal, or committing genocide just by supporting the state of Israel. That’s not a healthy environment for young adults. For a while, I avoided being on campus—I didn’t even go to my office for six or seven months—but students don’t have that choice. They have to be on campus every day. They have to be on social media every day. They don’t have the luxury of disengaging, so they’re constantly exposed to this toxic environment.
00:19:28:21 - 00:19:54:15
One of my biggest frustrations is that this topic is framed as a free speech issue, but I don’t think it’s about free speech at all. I’m extremely disappointed with how the administration has handled it. That said, I also believe this is a time when we should expect more from our students. Even if it’s uncomfortable, I think Jewish students have certain obligations to the community. It’s not just about being advocates, but about showing up for the Jewish people in meaningful ways.
00:19:54:17 - 00:20:17:17
Just to clarify, you’re saying that up until recently, students could choose whether or not to lean into their public Jewish identity, but since October 7th, that choice has been revoked.
Yes, that’s exactly it. It’s hard to articulate because I understand people were raised on individualism, and I can’t force someone to say things they don’t want to say. But in Israel, there’s a serious commitment to something bigger than yourself—an interconnectedness.
00:20:17:17 - 00:21:26:07
That collectivist mindset has its dangers, like racism or Jewish supremacy, but it also has its strengths. In Israel, young Jews have given themselves completely to the well-being of the Jewish people since October 7th. I think it’s okay to expect our students here to have that same commitment, within reason and personal boundaries. It’s part of the gap we see between young Jews in Israel and in the U.S.—in Israel, they’re fully invested in the collective, and I think we can ask our students here to show up in a similar way.
00:21:26:07 - 00:21:55:08
When I was in Israel, I saw younger Israelis, like those in the Standing Together movement, showing up for their country in protest, wearing purple shirts and fighting for a better future for everyone. That’s their way of showing love for their country. I think some of our students would be there, too, if they were in Israel. It’s a way of saying, “I love this place, and I want it to be better for everyone.”
00:21:55:12 - 00:22:45:10
I agree with you about tribalism, even though it’s not a popular opinion. After October 7th, I had moments of wondering if Jews in my life who weren’t feeling what I was feeling were really part of the same tribe. Not in a judgmental way, but with genuine curiosity—if we’re not experiencing this the same way, are we really part of the same Jewish tribe? I’ve always been a big believer in peoplehood, but witnessing the storm in Israel over the past ten months has made me question that.
00:22:45:10 - 00:23:01:05
The challenge for our students on campus, from a rabbinic perspective, is that even those who grew up in strong Jewish communities often don’t have deep Jewish literacy. Many are discovering their Jewishness for the first time when they walk through our doors at Berkeley Hillel because they feel like just a number in a school of 30,000 students.
00:23:01:05 - 00:23:18:16
When they come into Hillel, we remember their names, we have gender-neutral bathrooms, and there’s a female rabbi. These things make students who may never have been interested in Judaism before say, “I’m Jewish—what’s this about?” But I can’t expect them yet to show up for the Jewish people. There’s still groundwork that needs to be done in terms of their education and identity.
00:23:18:16 - 00:23:44:12
There’s a lot of groundwork needed in the American Jewish community, especially the liberal Jewish community, around education and Jewish identity. We need to help students see that being Jewish is more than just an Instagram identity alongside their queerness, pronouns, or racial identity. What does it actually mean to be a Jew? That’s the work I do, and it’s happening alongside this crisis with the Jewish people.
00:23:44:14 - 00:24:13:26
Exactly. And I’d add two challenges. One is, how do you fight for Israel’s body and Israel’s soul at the same time? They contradict each other, right? I’m supposed to defend Israel’s right to exist, but at the same time, I criticize what I believe to be Israel’s worst government ever. It’s hard to balance both defending Israel and criticizing it when everything you say is used against you.
00:24:13:26 - 00:24:49:07
When I gave a talk at Hillel about whether Israel is committing genocide, I critiqued the Israeli government for irresponsible and immoral statements. Afterward, some students came to me and said, “How can you stand here and criticize Israel when everything you say is being used not to critique us, but to argue that Israel has no right to exist?” That’s a real challenge—how to voice legitimate criticism without undermining Israel’s right to exist.
00:24:49:09 - 00:25:22:04
Another challenge is within progressive, liberal circles. There’s an inherent suspicion, if not outright rejection, of national projects like Zionism. In progressive circles, nationalism is often viewed as a settler-colonialist project, unless it’s the Palestinian national project, which is seen as legitimate. Zionism, on the other hand, is often dismissed as a colonialist endeavor, and that creates a significant challenge for younger progressive Jews.
00:25:22:11 - 00:25:45:07
These terms, Zionism and anti-Zionism, have become almost useless. When I was in Israel, several patriotic Israelis told me it’s absurd that the litmus test is whether or not you’re a Zionist. For many, the term doesn’t hold the same relevance anymore. Zionism was a movement to establish a national homeland for the Jewish people, and now that we have it, the term doesn’t carry the same weight it once did.
00:25:45:10 - 00:26:06:12
Daniel Gordis says in his book that asking if you’re a Zionist today is as relevant as asking an American whether they support the Union or the Confederacy. I see the intellectual appeal of that argument, but I also think it’s a narrow interpretation of Zionism. Zionism is still evolving, and its meaning is up for debate, but we can’t let others define it for us.
00:26:06:14 - 00:26:35:29
How do you argue with someone who thinks a Zionist is a Nazi? That’s absurd, but there are people who hold that belief. Once someone is calling you a Nazi, there’s little chance of having a productive conversation. The same goes for people who call all Palestinians terrorists. The terms are almost irrelevant—it’s about something much deeper. But it’s hard to have meaningful conversations when the discourse has become so extreme.
00:26:36:04 - 00:27:18:20
There’s a lot of irony in the fact that many anti-Zionists and Zionists probably believe the same things but don’t even realize it. People will write off this podcast just because of the letter Z in our name, without even listening. If there are Jews out there who hold these views, and I’m here to serve the Jewish people, how do we bridge that gap? This is what we’re trying to do with these conversations—to present compelling truths and ideas, and trust that people can discern for themselves.
00:27:18:23 - 00:27:36:28
The overwhelming amount of information being thrown at us today is a huge problem. It’s not just limited to the Jewish community; it’s happening across the board, whether in journalism, politics, or social media. It’s a spiritual trap, and we’re just trying to be part of the solution.
00:29:32:16 - 00:30:13:26
Most Jews outside of Israel overwhelmingly identify with Israel, and to disregard that is to overlook a significant part of the Jewish people. It’s not just a minority of Jews who support Israel. We need to engage seriously with the realities of what it means to be a Zionist or anti-Zionist today and not just use these terms without understanding their weight and implications.
00:30:14:04 - 00:30:49:07
At the end of the day, whether you're a Zionist or anti-Zionist, there’s more common ground than we often realize. But these terms have been weaponized, and it makes meaningful conversation difficult. The challenge for us, especially in academic and communal spaces, is to push beyond these labels and actually have productive, thoughtful discussions about what they mean and what’s at stake for the Jewish people as a whole.
00:30:49:09 - 00:31:15:06
And the students we work with—many of them don’t have the historical or cultural context to fully understand what’s happening. That’s where we come in, providing education and a space for honest dialogue about Jewish identity, Israel, and the complexities surrounding these issues. It’s not easy, especially in an environment where social media and misinformation distort reality, but it’s necessary.
00:31:15:08 - 00:31:37:24
Yes, go ahead. I'll remember what I wanted to say.
The second challenge I think is that among American progressive liberals, there’s an inherent suspicion or rejection of the idea of nationalism. Except, of course, when it’s for the Palestinian national project, which is seen as legitimate. In contrast, Zionism and the concept of a Jewish national homeland are often viewed as settler-colonial projects.
00:31:37:26 - 00:32:37:04
Yes, absolutely. It’s a complete double standard. Many progressives reject Zionism and other nationalist projects like the American or Canadian one as colonialist, but they accept Palestinian nationalism without applying the same critique. The legitimacy of nationalism itself is in question for a lot of young progressive Jews. This creates a deeper political level of challenge, especially when it comes to the tribalism you mentioned earlier. It’s a difficult issue to navigate on campus.
00:32:37:04 - 00:33:07:04
Exactly, and by the way, these terms—Zionism and anti-Zionism—are, in my opinion, no longer useful. They’ve lost their relevance. When I talk to Israelis, many don’t even identify with the term Zionist anymore. For them, Zionism was a movement to establish the state of Israel, but now that the state exists, the term doesn’t hold the same meaning. They see it as outdated, almost irrelevant to their current reality.
00:33:07:04 - 00:33:40:13
Exactly. As Daniel Gordis puts it, asking someone today if they’re a Zionist is like asking if they support the Union or the Confederacy in the U.S. Civil War. It’s a question that’s no longer relevant. Zionism succeeded in its mission to establish a Jewish homeland, so the term itself may need to evolve. But the irony is, in many cases, anti-Zionists and Zionists might actually share more common ground than they think.
00:33:40:13 - 00:34:06:12
But we can’t let other people define Zionism for us. That’s the essence of Zionism—it’s about Jewish self-determination, not letting others decide our identity or values. When someone equates Zionism with Nazism, it’s not a conversation we can engage in productively. We can’t argue with people who are that far removed from reality.
00:34:06:14 - 00:34:23:13
Exactly. If someone’s already at the point of calling Zionists Nazis, it’s not possible to have a meaningful dialogue with them. The same goes for people who call all Palestinians terrorists. It’s a sign that the conversation has gone beyond reason and into something much deeper and more difficult to address.
00:34:23:16 - 00:34:58:25
There’s just so much irony in how similar Zionists and anti-Zionists can be, without even realizing it. Both sides often believe the same things but get caught up in the labels. And yet, here we are, knowing that some people won’t even listen to this podcast simply because it has the letter “Z” in its name. It’s a challenge because we’re here to serve the Jewish people, and that means engaging with Jews across the spectrum, even when they reject the very terms we use to describe our work.
00:34:58:25 - 00:35:12:13
Exactly. And this all plays into the larger problem of living in a world overloaded with information and misinformation. People are quick to jump to conclusions based on incomplete or skewed narratives, and it makes our work in education and dialogue that much harder.
00:35:12:13 - 00:35:35:24
It’s a huge challenge, but that’s why we’re doing this—to have conversations that push beyond the noise and misinformation. We need to trust that, if we present compelling truths and ideas, people can discern for themselves. The overwhelming amount of information coming at us from all sides is not just a Jewish community problem—it’s a global issue. It affects how we engage with everything, from politics to social media, and we’re just one part of trying to address it.
00:35:35:26 - 00:35:51:05
Exactly. It’s a spiritual trap we’re caught in, where the sheer volume of conflicting information makes it hard for people to critically engage with reality. But we don’t have a choice—we have to be part of the solution, even if we can’t solve the problem for everyone.
00:35:51:08 - 00:36:08:19
We don’t have the privilege of saying, “I don’t care.” We’re too deeply in it. I think about it every day, especially when I’m in Berkeley, talking about coexistence and mutual understanding. At the end of the day, it feels like unless governments regulate social media, the problem will persist. But all we can do is repair our little corner of the world, and that’s what I’m trying to do.
00:36:08:19 - 00:36:29:29
And there’s nothing more Jewish than that—taking responsibility for our part of the world and trying to make it better. But the challenges we face are massive. They go beyond the Jewish community, touching on issues of humanity, the state of the world, and the overwhelming forces we’re up against. But we keep going because we’re committed to this work.
00:36:29:29 - 00:36:56:28
Absolutely. We’re dealing with forces much bigger than ourselves—not just social media but global powers that have historically treated the Jewish people as pawns. This is nothing new. In every generation, we’ve faced these challenges, and this is just the latest version. We’ve always been caught in the middle of larger geopolitical struggles, and this time is no different.
00:36:56:28 - 00:37:18:10
As always, we have to continue doing the work. If there’s one thing that has helped me over the past ten months, it’s knowing that I can serve our community and our people. It’s a big responsibility, but it gives me a sense of purpose in the face of overwhelming challenges. We’re up against great powers, but that’s always been the case.
00:37:18:10 - 00:37:36:28
Yes, it’s definitely a larger issue than just us. Social media is one front, but the global political powers and the ways in which the Jewish people are used as pawns is another. It’s something we’ve always had to deal with, and it continues to this day.
00:37:36:28 - 00:38:15:12
Exactly. It’s the same story in every generation—this is our lot. But we keep going because we have to. And part of that is addressing the intellectual laziness that comes with dismissing Zionism or anti-Zionism without truly engaging with what they mean. For Jewish people to say they’re anti-Zionist without seriously grappling with what that means for over half of the Jewish population is intellectually lazy.
00:38:15:12 - 00:38:31:29
It’s more than half the Jewish people. A high percentage of Jews, especially those living outside of Israel, overwhelmingly support Israel, whether in Europe, Latin America, or North America. To ignore that reality is to dismiss a huge part of the Jewish experience.
00:38:31:29 - 00:38:54:28
And it’s not just about Israel—it’s about engaging seriously with the reality that Israel is central to Jewish identity for so many people. To claim to be anti-Zionist without addressing that is to dismiss the experiences of millions of Jews around the world.
00:38:54:28 - 00:39:08:15
Yes, and I think that’s a big part of what we’re trying to do—to create space for real, meaningful dialogue about these issues. Because it’s not just about labels like Zionism or anti-Zionism. It’s about understanding the complexities of what those terms mean today and how they impact the Jewish people.
00:39:08:15 - 00:39:32:16
Yes, and I think the point is that people who choose to identify as anti-Zionist without really considering what that means for half of the Jewish people are not engaging with the reality of the situation. It’s an oversimplification and intellectual laziness to say you're anti-Zionist while ignoring the complexities of Jewish identity and the centrality of Israel to millions of Jews.
00:39:32:16 - 00:40:11:06
It’s more than half the Jewish people, in fact, because a large percentage of Jews outside Israel identify with the state of Israel in some way. Whether in Europe, Latin America, or North America, many Jews align themselves with Israel, and it’s crucial to understand that. To disregard the realities of what Israel represents to global Jewry is a significant oversimplification.
00:40:11:06 - 00:40:31:29
And this simplification makes it easy to dismiss the lived experiences of millions of people. It’s not just about labels like Zionism or anti-Zionism—it's about engaging with the real challenges, nuances, and historical contexts that these terms carry today. We have to look beyond simplistic definitions and engage with the realities facing Jews around the world.
Here is the remainder of the transcript you provided, cleaned up:
00:40:32:01 - 00:40:54:09
Yeah. They are Israelis. Yeah. We need to seriously deal with this fact and not just wipe them off. Yeah. Which really, like even putting aside the terms and whether, you know, Zionism today, I would say that Zionism is also about creating an exemplary society in Israel. The mission is ongoing, still relevant, just like Herzl's vision was in some ways. The fact that we have half of the Jewish people in Israel—what are you going to do about that? Are you going to write them off? What is going to happen to them when there is no longer an Israel? I have yet to find a real and realistic answer, and not just, you know, rhetorical arguments.
00:40:54:09 - 00:41:17:09
This is where it comes back to rhetoric. It's not based on reality. I don’t think we've mentioned this explicitly, but the gap between the American far left and the radical left in Israel is huge. The reality of the movements here in America and on campus is so disconnected from what's happening in Israel.
00:41:17:09 - 00:41:37:22
Right. It’s like they're missing the broader context of the Middle East entirely. That's what I find fascinating and frustrating—it’s all rhetoric for them, but for us, it's our lives.
00:41:37:22 - 00:41:58:26
Exactly. Where are the people who were part of the protests? Now they're on vacation somewhere. And, you know, people love to tell me about Berkeley when I travel, as if they know the full story.
00:41:58:27 - 00:42:17:14
Right. And there's this idea of "all struggles are connected." And while some of that is true in certain ways, not every struggle is the same. The challenges in Israel and Palestine don’t equate to other movements like LGBTQ+ or Black rights in the U.S., and yet, on campus, it’s presented as all being part of the same fight.
00:42:17:15 - 00:42:35:21
Exactly. It's not that simple. And what happens is that this convergence of causes on campuses is making it harder for real, nuanced conversations to happen about Israel and the Palestinians. It ends up doing more harm than good to both sides.
00:42:35:22 - 00:42:54:10
Right. And for many Palestinians, these protests are damaging their own cause. I’ve heard Palestinians say, “How can we promote a two-state solution when many of our allies are calling for the complete destruction of Israel?” It's a huge problem.
00:42:54:13 - 00:43:14:27
Exactly. It’s the same thing for me when I return to Israel and talk about the need for serious conversations about a Palestinian state. People there tell me, “What are you talking about? The whole world hates us, and they always have.” This global rhetoric is fueling more division.
00:43:14:27 - 00:43:29:03
And it goes back to the gap you were talking about—the gap between Israeli liberals and the perception of Israel abroad. It's like we're talking past each other, and there’s a lack of understanding on both sides.
00:43:29:03 - 00:43:53:17
Exactly. And I think that’s why Israeli liberals feel so isolated right now. Who are our allies supposed to be? American liberals, right? But are they still? The support we’ve seen from North American Jewry since October 7th has been incredible, but conceptually, where are we now?
00:43:53:17 - 00:44:09:21
Yes, there's solidarity in the missions and the immediate responses, but in terms of the broader ideological support, there’s a big gap.
00:44:09:21 - 00:44:13:17
Right. And it’s not just in the Jewish community, but in American politics and discourse as a whole.
00:44:13:17 - 00:44:32:13
Exactly. And when you mix in this idea that all social justice causes are interconnected, it further complicates the conversation. From a progressive standpoint, they see everything—Palestine, LGBTQ+ rights, racial justice—as part of the same fight, but in reality, each has its own context.
00:44:32:16 - 00:50:09:07
Exactly. From a progressive view, it’s about world order and power structures. The challenge, as I see it, is that while each of these causes is important, lumping them together erases the specific histories and cultural contexts. The Palestinian struggle is not the same as the Black struggle in America, and conflating the two does a disservice to both.
00:50:09:09 - 00:50:31:07
Right. It's important to recognize connections, but also to appreciate differences. It’s about finding balance. Otherwise, everything gets flattened, and nothing has meaning anymore. The whole conversation gets reduced to simple labels like “Zionist” or “anti-Zionist,” which erases the complexity of the issues.
00:50:31:10 - 00:51:05:06
Exactly. And this flattening of identities, especially around Zionism, is part of the problem. It's no longer about nuance or dialogue. It's about choosing sides. And this is happening on both the left and the right.
00:51:05:06 - 00:51:42:12
I think the progressive movement has done important work in exposing injustices, but it’s also gone too far. Everything has become about tearing down structures, and there’s no focus on building anything new. We need both forces—critique and construction—but right now, we’re stuck in a cycle of destruction.
00:51:42:15 - 00:52:02:16
That’s exactly it. There’s a need to rebuild, to find balance between progressivism and liberalism, between critique and creation. If we only focus on what’s wrong, we miss the opportunity to build something better.
00:52:02:16 - 00:52:23:16
And while all these issues—LGBTQ+ rights, racial justice, the Palestinian struggle—are connected, they don’t have to be the same. We lose the nuance when we say they are, and we lose sight of the different realities that each issue represents.
00:52:23:16 - 00:52:45:02
Exactly. It’s about understanding that connection doesn’t mean sameness. The specific contexts of each struggle matter, and conflating them diminishes their unique challenges. And it can also dilute the very real issues, like antisemitism, that get swept under the rug when everything is lumped together.
00:52:45:02 - 00:53:22:28
Right. There’s an uncomfortable reality for progressive Jews, especially when it comes to facing antisemitism within movements they’ve supported. It’s not always intentional, but it’s still there, buried deep within the fabric of these movements. And it’s tied to broader power dynamics and worldviews that don’t always have room for Jewish concerns.
00:53:22:28 - 00:54:14:04
That’s exactly what makes it so difficult. Many progressive Jews are deeply committed to social justice, but they’re also facing the reality that some of the movements they’ve been part of are erasing or ignoring their concerns as Jews. And when antisemitism is framed as just another form of racism or oppression, it loses its particularity, and we can’t address it properly.
00:54:14:06 - 00:55:00:08
Yes, and when we start saying things like “all struggles are the same,” we lose the very specific histories and realities of each. We erase the particular experiences of Jews, Palestinians, Black Americans—everyone. We need to hold onto that nuance, or we lose sight of what we’re really fighting for.
00:55:00:08 - 00:55:32:22
It’s about context. Not everything is settler colonialism. Not everything fits into the same framework. If we try to see everything through one lens, we miss the complexity of the world and the unique challenges each group faces. That’s what’s happening now with the conversation around Israel and Zionism—it’s been flattened into one narrative, and that’s dangerous.
00:55:32:22 - 00:56:15:15
It’s deeply frustrating because these labels—Zionist, anti-Zionist—don’t mean what they used to, and yet they’ve become the only identities that matter in the discourse. We need to move beyond them and engage in real, nuanced conversations about what’s happening on the ground.
00:56:15:15 - 00:57:02:16
What’s sad is that this could have been an opportunity for a global movement pushing for peace—a movement of students calling for freedom for both Israelis and Palestinians. But instead, the rhetoric has become so polarized, and the real issues have been overshadowed by slogans and simplistic narratives. It’s a missed opportunity.
00:57:02:18 - 00:57:36:23
And we’ve missed the chance for real engagement. Instead of students demanding a better future for both peoples, we’ve seen this one-sided protest that ignores the complexities of the situation. It’s frustrating because many of the students probably don’t even fully believe in the rhetoric they’re chanting—they’re just caught up in the momentum.
00:57:36:23 - 00:58:00:09
Exactly. And while we can’t reach everyone, we have a responsibility to hold people accountable for what they say, even if they don’t fully understand it. That’s part of our role as educators—to challenge and engage, not just to let these narratives go unchecked.
00:58:00:12 - 00:58:38:15
There’s a lot of nuance here, and we can’t lose sight of that. It’s not about shutting down conversations or demonizing people. It’s about creating space for dialogue, for education, for growth. We have to bring people into these conversations, even if they don’t have all the answers yet. That’s how change happens.
00:58:38:15 - 00:59:28:02
Yes. We need to educate, to create these opportunities for real dialogue. But we also need responsible adults in the room to guide the process, especially in universities. Unfortunately, many university leaders are afraid to step up and say what needs to be said. They’re too worried about saying the wrong thing or upsetting the wrong group, and so nothing gets done.
00:59:28:02 - 01:00:34:27
It’s tragic. Universities should be places of education and dialogue, not silence and inaction. And when we’re forced to call in external authorities like the police to handle situations that could have been prevented through proper engagement, it’s a failure of the university’s responsibility.
01:00:34:27 - 01:01:29:03
Exactly. It's tragic when universities don't take responsibility for what's happening on their campuses. By the time they're calling in the police, it's already too late—they’ve missed the opportunity to engage with students and address the issues before they escalate. And it's a sign that the university isn't fulfilling its educational role when the only action they take is reactive rather than proactive.
01:01:29:03 - 01:01:45:22
Right. And when you look at it from a Jewish community perspective, there’s also the question of how do we serve the entire community? How do we remain relevant to everyone while also staying true to our values? It’s not an easy balance to strike.
01:01:45:22 - 01:02:11:08
Yes, and when we’re trying to fill the gaps left by the university, it’s even harder. Who are we serving, and how do we make sure we’re meeting the needs of all parts of the Jewish community, while also holding firm to the core beliefs that should define us?
01:02:11:10 - 01:02:52:15
Exactly. And while inclusion is important, it’s not the only thing that matters. We can’t compromise our core values just to make everyone feel comfortable. There are certain truths that we have to hold onto, even if they make people uncomfortable. It’s about finding the balance between being welcoming and standing firm in our beliefs.
01:02:52:15 - 01:03:36:08
Yes, and being uncomfortable is part of growth. It builds character. And as educators, we can’t shy away from that. We’re here to challenge our students, to help them grow, and sometimes that means making them uncomfortable in the process. But it’s always with the goal of helping them become more thoughtful, informed, and engaged individuals.
01:03:36:10 - 01:04:27:16
That’s exactly it. And while we’re working hard to create spaces where students feel safe and supported, we can’t shy away from difficult conversations. We can’t avoid the uncomfortable truths that need to be faced. It’s not easy, but it’s necessary if we’re going to help our students develop a strong and meaningful Jewish identity.
01:04:27:16 - 01:05:52:15
Yes, and we also have to recognize that there are students who come to us already feeling lost and unsure about their Jewish identity. They don’t have the background or the literacy to engage with these complex issues, and part of our job is to meet them where they are and help them build that foundation. But we also need to make sure that in doing that, we’re not losing sight of the bigger picture—the responsibility we have to stand firm in our values, to defend Israel’s right to exist, and to create spaces where these conversations can happen.
01:05:52:17 - 01:06:35:10
Yes, and that’s a big part of what we’re grappling with on campus right now. How do we create spaces where students can come together and engage in meaningful dialogue, even when they’re coming from very different places? It’s not easy, but it’s something we’re committed to doing. We have to draw clear lines about what we stand for, but we also have to be open to the diversity of thought and experience within the Jewish community.
01:06:35:10 - 01:07:00:12
Exactly. Inclusion is important, but it can’t be the only thing that matters. We need to stand firm in our beliefs while also being open to dialogue. And we need to challenge our students to grow, even if that means making them uncomfortable sometimes.
01:07:00:16 - 01:07:30:08
Right, and as much as we want to include everyone, we also have to recognize that not everyone is going to agree with us or feel comfortable with the conversations we’re having. But that’s okay. Our job is to create a space where these conversations can happen, where students can come to their own conclusions, and where we can help them navigate the complexities of Jewish identity and Israel.
01:07:30:08 - 01:08:21:23
And we can’t shy away from the fact that sometimes the truth is uncomfortable. As much as we want to be inclusive, we also have to stand up for what we believe in. We have to be willing to say, “This is what we stand for, and we’re not going to compromise on that.” And that’s not easy, but it’s necessary if we’re going to create a strong and vibrant Jewish community.
01:08:21:23 - 01:09:23:05
Absolutely. And we also have to recognize that for some of our students, this is the first time they’re encountering these conversations. They may not have the background or the tools to fully engage with them yet. But that’s where we come in. We’re here to guide them, to help them learn, and to provide the support they need as they navigate their Jewish identity in this challenging time.
01:09:23:05 - 01:10:57:04
Yes, and that’s part of our responsibility as educators and leaders. We need to be there for our students, to help them grow and learn, but also to challenge them and push them to think critically about these issues. It’s not always easy, but it’s the work that we’re committed to doing. We’re not just here to make people feel comfortable—we’re here to help them grow, to help them think more deeply about their Jewish identity and their connection to Israel, and to create a space where real, meaningful conversations can happen.
01:10:57:04 - 01:11:59:08
Exactly. And part of that means being clear about what we stand for, even when it’s uncomfortable. We can’t avoid the hard conversations just because they’re difficult. We have to create spaces where students can engage with these issues in a thoughtful and meaningful way, and where they can come to their own conclusions. But at the same time, we also have to be clear about our values and our beliefs, and not be afraid to stand up for them.
01:11:59:08 - 01:12:59:08
Yes, and this is something that’s relevant not just in the Jewish community, but in American politics more broadly. We need to be able to have these conversations, even when we disagree. It’s about creating a space where people can come together, where we can listen to each other, and where we can engage in thoughtful, respectful dialogue. That’s how we move forward, both as a community and as a society.
01:12:59:08 - 01:13:38:00
Absolutely. And that’s why it’s so important to keep having these conversations, even when they’re hard. We need to create spaces where people feel safe to express their opinions, but also where they’re challenged to think critically about those opinions. That’s the only way we’re going to move forward, both in our own community and in the larger world.
01:13:38:00 - 01:14:00:06
Thank you both for being part of this conversation and for sharing your thoughts so openly. It’s not an easy time for anyone, but having these discussions is crucial if we’re going to create a stronger, more united Jewish community.
01:14:00:06 - 01:14:07:29
Thank you for having us. This was a really meaningful conversation, and I’m glad we could be part of it.
01:14:07:29 - 01:14:17:29
Yes, thank you. It was an important discussion, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to share.
01:14:17:29 - 01:14:28:00
Thank you. I look forward to more conversations like this in the future.
01:14:28:00 - 01:14:35:00
Absolutely. Let’s keep the conversation going. Thank you again.
