What is Zionism After October 7th?
Zionism begins with the 2000-year-old belief that the Jewish people will return to their ancient homeland. We have returned. Now what? In Israel, we are witnessing a slide into applied messianism and extremism, and in the U.S., our shared language of belief, ideology, and theology is rapidly thinning. This conversation explores the core of Jewish peoplehood and how our shared values can anchor a vibrant future together.
About Our Moderator & Panelists:
Jennifer Mamlet is the acting president and CEO of JCC Association of North America. She previously served as executive vice president, leading day-to-day operations and strategic growth of the organization, and before that, was the chief development officer, overseeing a 10-fold increase in philanthropic support in four years. Mamlet is the former executive director of the JCC of Central New Jersey and senior vice president of the Ad Council. Earlier in her career, she worked at the American Camp Association. She has a master’s degree in social work from Columbia University and a dual bachelor’s degree from Bucknell University.
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Ladon is the Vice President, West Coast and Senior Faculty at the Shalom Hartman Institute of North America, where he guides the program and development strategy on the West Coast. An award-winning educator, Joshua was previously the Director of Education for the Institute in North America, guiding the content and curriculum of national and regional programs. Prior to Hartman he served as the Dean of Student and Jewish Life at the Jewish Community High School of the Bay. Joshua received a BA from Washington University in St. Louis and subsequently lived in Jerusalem for seven years, completing an MA in Jewish Thought at Tel Aviv University. He also received rabbinic ordination from the Shalom Hartman Institute and a doctorate in Jewish Education from the Jewish Theological Seminary. Joshua also teaches in the Interreligious Studies Program at the Graduate Theological Union. His writing has been featured in The New Republic, Religion Dispatches, Shma: A Journal of Jewish Ideas and other publications.
Liel Leibovitz is editor at large at Tablet Magazine, and the host of its flagship podcast, Rootless, as well as of its daily Talmud podcast, Take One. A frequent contributor to the Wall Street Journal, the New York Post, Commentary, and other publications, Liel is also a regular columnist for First Things magazine and a senior research fellow at the Hudson Institute, focusing on anti-Semitism as a national security threat. He's the author or co-author of eleven books, including, most recently, How the Talmud Can Change Your Life: Surprisingly Modern Advice from a Very Old Book. A recovering academic, he taught at NYU, Barnard College and elsewhere before extricating himself from the wreckage. His PhD is about video games, a fact that still makes his seven-year-old self very happy. A ninth generation Israeli and a veteran of the Israel Defense Forces, he lives in Manhattan with his wife and children.
Rabba Mor Shimonie is a passionate Jewish community leader, educator, and entrepreneur committed to creating vibrant, inclusive and profound Jewish spaces. Born and raised in Israel, Mor recently moved to San Francisco in partnership with the Jewish Agency, where she now serves as the Director of Family Education at The Kitchen SF. With a deep commitment to making Jewish life accessible and meaningful, Mor has spent over a decade shaping communities and initiatives that bridge Jewish tradition with contemporary culture. From 2015 to 2024, Mor led Bina's Secular Yeshiva, an innovative learning center dedicated to reimagining Jewish life for a modern Israel. She also founded Beit Bina, a welcoming Jewish center for travelers in India, and established the Bina Community in Tel Aviv-Jaffa, where she served as the spiritual and educational leader. Her work also included developing Jewish learning and community engagement at Neve Schechter, a vibrant hub for Jewish arts and culture, as well as founding the Coalition for Israeli-Judaism in partnership with the Tel Aviv-Jaffa municipality, which aims to cultivate a more inclusive, accessible Judaism in Israel. Mor received her rabbinic ordination from the Shalom Hartman Institute in 2024.
Video Transcript
Jennifer Mamlet: Good afternoon. It is great that we have already inspired conversation. I'm going to pull us back together so that we can get this incredible panel started.
I'm Jen Mamlet, the acting president and CEO of JCC association. I am very briefly going to introduce our panelists just so that you understand the pleasure with whom.
we have the pleasure to be with today. Their full bios are in the booklet that you have, I believe, or certainly online. So you can find out a lot more about them, I will start. at the end to introduce Rabba Mor Shimonie. She is the Director of Family Education at The Kitchen.
She was born and raised in Israel and recently moved to San Francisco to take on this role at The Kitchen. She has a deep commitment to making Jewish life accessible and meaningful and she has spent over a decade shaping communities and initiatives. that bring Jewish tradition with contemporary culture.
She formerly led BINA secular yeshiva and has done a tremendous amount of work with BINA. I want to say around the world. She was ordained as a rabbi in 2024 by the Shalom Hartman Institute and was a fellow at the Honey Foundation. And she's also a graduate of the Mandel Leadership Institute. It is a pleasure and an honor to be here with you. Next to Moore, we have Rabbi Dr. Joshua Laden, Vice President, West Coast and Senior Faculty at the Shalom Hartman Institute of North America. Anytime I am in the presence of a rabbi and a doctor, we know that we have somebody who has studied a lot.
He is an award winning educator and previously served as the Director of Education for the Institute of North America and as the Dean of Student and Jewish Life at the Jewish Community High School of the Bay. his writing has been featured in many places, including the New Republic, Religion, Dispatches, Shema.
Josh, it is an honor to share this panel with you. And finally, to my left, Liel Leibovitz, editor at large of Tablet Magazine and the host of its podcast, Rootless, as well of its daily Talmud podcast Take One. Liel is a frequent contributor to many places, including the wall street journal, the New York post commentary and other publications.
He's the author or coauthor of 11 books, most recently, How the Talmud Can Change Your Life: surprisingly modern Advice from a very old book. I love that title. I also love that you call yourself a recovering academic. And I believe that you recently told me that really your one boss is Hashem.
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: Yeah, when asked I say, I work full time for Hashemone never really fully recovers. It's like Lyme disease from academia. You know, once you've been plagued, it's always somewhere in your blood, but I'm doing better now. Thanks for asking.
Jennifer Mamlet: you have a sense of how this is going to go today, folks.
So we're gonna dive right in. The topic again today is what is Zionism after October 7th. It's a meaty, meaty topic. I want to start with the basics because I think the word Zionism is thrown a lot, it's thrown around a lot these days. So, Moore, perhaps I'll start with you. Share with us your definition of Zionism.
Rabba Mor Shimonie: All right. So as a millennial, I asked my friends on Instagram, what is their definition of Zionism post 10 7? And these are a few of the answers. So one answer was, when someone asks me where I'm from when I'm abroad, I don't say Tel Aviv anymore, I say Israel. Writing and creating in Hebrew. Pursuing peace.
Being a proud Israeli living in my country, even when times are hard. Letting go of tribalism for the sake of a broader community. Staying connected to Israel. So my definition of Zionism, and I think it's not a, it's not a, I didn't make this up. But Zionism is an action.
Zionism is a form of action, is a form of proactivity, of doing something. I less see Zionism as an identity for myself, not, I don't call myself, I am Zionist but not as a identity part of my life as an active part of my life I am if I'm doing something of love and care towards Zion I am a Zionist and there could be many different ways of doing work of love and care towards Zion and the people in Zion.
But I think that, and I really, I felt it before and then I saw all these answers. I was like, everyone is saying that they're doing something. It's an activity. It's proactively doing something. And it's not enough just to have that, like, a definition in your mind. So, yeah, I think that's, it's a short answer,
So I think for me, it's a form of activity, doing something and even when it's hard yeah. I'll give more people the time and we'll come back.
Jennifer Mamlet: Zionism as a verb, not just a noun, is what I'm hearing. Thank you. Josh, I'm curious and I've invited our panelists, and you can already tell they're not going to be shy, to jump in, obviously, if you want to react.
Josh, I'm curious if you have seen the word misapplied. and how and, yeah, I'll leave it there.
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Ladon: I mean, I was telling the panel I live in Berkeley so in which there's, like, sort of funny misconceptions about Berkeley because it's actually this amazingly vibrant Jewish community, and there's certainly a lot of activism and then there's also explicit antisemitism.
And in that, I think I find the misappropriation of the term, for me, that I find most challenging tends to be, you know, like, if someone has a sign up that says, like, free Palestine, I'm like, okay, I understand that there's a whole movement around that, and, andthere's I don't, I don't love that it's sort of been taken out of the capacity of those of us who see ourselves as Zionists and also want a Palestinian state.
The place where I find Zionism to be sort of misconstrued is when there's a description, when there's like a sign that says like, Zionism doesn't equal Judaism. I can understand, we can look at the Jewish world and see the ways in which certain, what I might call maximalist Zionists want to suggest that if you're a Jew, the only expression of Judaism should be a Zionism that is really full throated.
But I think what, actually happened is that separation of Zionism and Judaism, both feels is a deep misunderstanding meaning for me the conversations that emerge in the late 1800s about what should happen to the Jews after we've left the shtetls or we've left the yeshiva or we are being emancipated and we have the vote.
Those conversations are not just political, they're deep Jewish questions about what should happen to Judaism. So for me, this, anytime there's a separation or attempt to uncouple Judaism from Zionism, I get frustrated. And that's both an outside frustration, meaning frustrations with those who see themselves as not Zionist, and a frustration of the institutional internal Jewish world, which oftentimes can turn Zionism into exclusively a political identity and not the sort of cultural, religious, literary revolution that it was enacting in the late 1800s.
So that's sort of what I'm coming into is you can start to see my biases or where I sit in the Zionist discourse.
Jennifer Mamlet: Very much so. I'm going to build on that a little bit, Liel, and ask you I, I had heard somebody say recently, I'm going to read the quotes that I don't I don't get it wrong.
Israel is our homeland, regardless of the land which we call our home. Building on what Josh just said, does this mean Inherently, that every Jew is a Zionist?
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: The short answer would be yes. But before, before I answer it, I want to thank you for the, for the term maximalist Zionist. I, I love it. I'll suggest it at the next meeting that we have.
We'll adopt it. Here is the thing that perplexes me about Zionism. The attempt to define Zionism is by kind of design a ridiculous question, because if you ask most people to share what they mean when they say Zionism, they would give some kind of pat answer, probably not on Instagram or TikTok, but, you know, in the real world they would give some kind of answer like well, it is a 19th century, it's also a 19th century movement to build a national homeland for the Jewish people and the land of Israel.
Now let's look just for fun. At another movement 19th century national movement. Let's look at the Risorgimento movement to reunify Italy, led by Garibaldi. We're now 153 years from Italy's reunification. Try going around Italy asking any Italian if they define themselves as a Garibaldist. I have done this while drunk in Florence one night this summer.
It doesn't go well because the question seems ridiculous because Zionism was never any of these things. Zionism, if anything, is, is our perpetual anxiety that will only be resumed and res or it'll only be resolved, rather, when we fulfill the thing that we happen to pray for thrice daily and have for, you know, a minute now which is the coming of Mashiach and the rebuilding of the Temple.
Now, this is a very strange thing to say in Palo Alto, California. But it happens to be sort of coded into the whole kind of thing, which is to say Zionism is not really, and, and here, Mor I really connect with what you said is not really a thing that could be defined, nor is it a, a, a kind of pillar.
It's a conversation, and the conversation, Josh, exactly as you said, is a conversation about What kind of path do we wish to take towards this divinely ordained end? What is our pursuit right now? And that pursuit could be political, cultural and that is the reason that it animates us. So much, and shall continue to do so until said man on you know, white donkey arrives from the heavens.
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Ladon: I do think, the anxiety that has emerged post October 7th in America, I mean, it's been going on for, the last couple of decadesWhy can't people just understand that Zionism means we believe Jews deserve to have sovereignty in their homeland
The minimalist Zionism is really such a minimal ask that has become a preoccupation in North America, it's as though North American Jews and Israeli Jews are actually navigating two very different conversations about Zionism, because the North American Jewish community actually doesn't, other than that minimalist notion, doesn't really know what to do with Zionism, as Liel is pointing out, it has utopic, messianic versions and visions, which cause Jews who are not going along with that utopic vision concern. Wait a minute. What does it mean for me to be a Zionist here in America? If I'm living here, I love living here, I care about Israel, I'm gonna commit to the Jewish people there, But like, that's a minimal bar to hit, to ask Jews to say, Oh right, I happen to think that some Jews should be able to live there in a sovereign way.
But that's the entire goal these days, and I feel like it's missing something, if that's the only sort of element of Zionism in North America.
Rabba Mor Shimonie: I want to add to it because I am Israeli born and raised in 35 years lived there. And when I thought about, so you were saying this is, this is like the, the minimal is just like that we have a right to, to, to a country and to have our own sovereignty and all of that.
But for me, Zionism, I lived in the, like, in the outcome of the Zionist movement, okay? I grew up in it. It's not even I know what it is or I'm defining it. It's just like I grew up in my My there's a sociologist called Bourdieu and he came up with the word habitus. And habitus, so Zionism, the outcome of Zionism was my habitus, and it still is.
It's just my norms, my language, my culture, my people, like everything around me, surrounding my life, is the outcome of Zionism. the outcome of Zionism is just like an organic movement that it's alive, and it's wise, and it's healthy that it became because we were in real danger and we needed an outcome, we needed a solution.
for me it's not only that minimal, like, for me, there's, like, this huge gap because it's not a minimal thing. it's my entire life, right? The outcome, I'm just adding my perspective to it that my, maybe my disposition, like, towards Zionism, shifted throughout the years.
I saw it differently. I grew up, but, like, the fact that we speak in Hebrew, that we have our living vital culture that is, like, happening all the time and it's still going, and we have our own criticism of Israel. And we have our own opinions of Israel. Like, we live in this thing. And I just wanted to add it into, like, the spectrum.
If we're, like, in this spectrum of, like, minimal and maximal, it's just like people are actually living in the outcome of the Zionist movement.
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: So, surprise, surprise I wish to, you know, respectfully and radically disagree with this notion, not with, you know, the habitus. And as an Israeli myself, I share.
The sentiment, I think you're completely correct, but I think in a weird way if we're looking at the, at sort of like these two groups relationship to Zionism, I think American Jews have a for them, especially after October 7th, it is a very kind of facile point of of agreement to say like, yes, this thing is a huge part of my identity.
Someone on stage said today, of course we support Israel because, you know, it is the only place that protects, you know, gay rights and women's rights. And my question is, what if, what if it wasn't? What if it wasn't all these things? Would you still support it? And the answer should be, Yes, in Israel we're seeing something more interesting and more complicated this last, you know, October 7th, but put a halt to it.
But since Netanyahu's current, the beginning of Netanyahu's current government we're seeing a living kind of breathing enactment of the cornerstone foundational argument that Zionism has always been about. Which is, do we want a Jewish state? Or do we want a state for the jews which has rendered the first congress, in the 1890s, very lively and which has acted, again every saturday night on kaplan street in tel aviv it is not an easy question to answer and however, it is answered it is going to leave a whole host of israelis feeling Absolutely disenchanted and alienated from their own project and yet this is the conversation that we must have it's the only one going on
Jennifer Mamlet: So it started with a simple question of what is Zionism after October 7th and you can see why it is It's not only conversation worthy, why it's challenging.
We're talking about Zionism as a verb, Zionism on a spectrum, Zionism here, Zionism in Israel. It's complicated. Maybe I can shift to an element of Zionism that people often hold onto. I was struck, I know many people in my circles were struck. It was, I think, weeks after October 7th when in the Sapir Journal, Michal Bitton had a piece where she said, that pain you're feeling is peoplehood.
That resonated very, very strongly. And to me, and to many people in my circles, they've talked about peoplehood as sort of that fundamental ingredient, I guess, in the recipe that is Zionism. So I'm curious, can one be a Zionist without a strong commitment to peoplehood? Or vice versa, can you have a strong commitment to peoplehood and not be a Zionist in either direction?
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Ladon: There are like, you know, eight million Israeli Jews who struggle deeply with peoplehood but are deeply committed to Zionism. Like some of them, I mean, I think they, I think a lot of Israelis feel like they're doing service for the Jewish people all the time, but also Israel has a great history of how do you say it?
Shulagalut? Negating the diaspora. Negating the diaspora. And so there's a deep conflict inside Zionism for Jewish people. Although I agree with Michal. Like, I kept thinking after October 7th, God, I hope my kids never have to deal with this. And if they do, I hope they feel as bad as I do.
Rabba Mor Shimonie: I think the word peoplehood, became, I think I heard it first, a decade ago, maybe. And it became a thing after, I think, the point of saying, okay, we need to have a different word for, Diaspora, we are not saying in Hebrew, Galut, Golan. We're not using these words that Remind us of exile and there's one place that we need to be and right So peoplehood emerged all of a sudden it was introduced.
I don't know who was in charge of it But good job Because everyone's talking about it.
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Ladon: Yeah
Rabba Mor Shimonie: But no, but like around 12 years ago, it like became a buzzword. And I think it's interesting. Is it like really trying to make all of these questions that are big, like, they're big questions.
Where, like, is this Israel as a center? Is it a place that we have to have? Do we, like, we all need to be in relation with Zion, like, all of these questions? I, somehow when you say people, we might just erase them or just, like, make them more mild and just, like, put them aside because it's just, like, one people, right?
And also, We have this issue and post 10 7, we really, we feel it strongly now. We have, oh wait, this project is, it didn't end yet. It's, we took it for granted. We, I'm talking for myself. Maybe you feel the same, but We're like, I thought I was already sitting in a building that I inherited from my Reach family.
I don't know who that is, but whatever. and now I am, like, mostly my project is to decorate it, to to manage my neighbors who I don't, like, have good relationship with. Like, this is what I thought was I was living in, and now I'm like, Oh, no. I'm building the foundation.
Someone, like, the next generation is trusting me to build the foundation of this imaginary building that I thought I was sitting in. So I don't know how I got to it, but just like to say that sometimes these words can like make it go away.
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: I love the building metaphor. I think it's completely correct.
I mean, there is one thing that is foundationally to keep on with the building metaphors strange about Israel and the United States of America, which is those two and they alone are covenantal states. The beautiful thing is the Hebrew name for. The United States of America is Ertzot HaBrit, the lands of the covenant.
And Israel too is a covenant. The beautiful thing about a covenant is that, unlike a contract, which allows for no theory of change whatsoever, you, write, sign a dotted line, and that's what's going to happen. Covenant expects you, a la Abraham, about whom we read in the Torah these last few weeks expects you to rise to the occasion.
and you have to rise every generation anew. I personally love this idea, and I love the word peoplehood because it does something, especially in a very contemporary context. that is really interesting to me. First of all, it reminds us of this covenantal truth. But second of all, it tears us away from this kind of, late enlightenment mindset of thinking about ourselves in, oh, well, you know, the whole kind of benighted logic of intersectionality.
Like, which group do you belong to? Mark this box if you belong to are Jews white? Are you, like, the gays should stand together with blacks? Peoplehood is here to remind us that we predate all these stupid, idiotic boxes. And that we're committed, Adam and I were talking about this over breakfast, we're committed to something much, much, much more profound.
And I love the way Michal put it. It's pain, but it's also tremendous sense of hope and security because we're not going through this alone.
Jennifer Mamlet: I also think that it speaks to the connection to the people of Israel. in addition to the land of Israel. And I think when we, when all of us travel, you really do make that distinction when you come to that moment as an American Jew of finding connection to both the land and the people.
I think peoplehood's a, I think it's a powerful word. I'm going to shift us a little bit. Amitai said on the stage earlier today that this is, I think he used the word reckoning, that this is a moment of reckoning and I certainly agree with that. I have been describing this past year as a moment of deep introspectionit was deep introspection for people, for families, certainly in this context, communities, organizations, we are all looking inward.
Even as we're looking outward And so i'm curious as you reflect on this period and i'm sure each of you has been somewhat introspective on this i'm curious, what's something that has surprised you? Whether it's been about the Jewish people, the communities, diaspora, what is something that surprised you?
And in the spirit of, I guess, like never letting a good crisis go to waste, what do you hope will emerge from this period? that didn't exist before. So you can either kind of take it in, in either direction,
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Ladon: the center must fold. I think the center is gone.
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: I agree, which is why I don't want to speak first. I mean, the only surprising thing to me is how, little I was surprised after October 7th, but I feel like I've been living and I'm not alone in this at allin a certain kind of reality with a lot of other Americans, Jewish and othersand sort of talking about a certain kind of, or, a series of processes which were immediately shut down because they didn't fit a kind of jaunty narrative.
Of what was going on. I mean, you and I were talking about this before. I wrote an article, the title of which was, Get Out telling people, especially Jews, to get the flip out of American universities right now. I wrote this piece in 2017. I tell my kids three times a week, you are never going to college, because I'm not paying a quarter of a million dollars for a bunch of mutually accrediting mediocrities to turn you into Nazis.
It's just not going to happen. Now, this kind of talk was considered very radical when I gave it three years ago. Right now, it's like Oh, how could you see it coming? Well, I could see it coming by doing the thing that Jews should always be doing, which is just, just be outsiders. From, from Moses to Joey Ramon, right?
We've always been on the outside of anything that was going on and we're very happy to do so. This prestige addiction that, you know, this community has developed over the last couple of decades is deadly. It's a deadly affliction. So the one thing if I am to say what surprises me, it's less surprise and more kind of gives me hope because I've, you know, I have deep faith in the Jewish people and our ability to, to survive, but to see how many people have sort of shifted and shown real commitment.
Someone on the stage called it the surge. as a student of America's past wars, this is not the best term to incorporate, but I'm very, very happy to see, shuls flourishing, to see people coming to all kinds of Jewish things. I'll give a silly example, but a while back, I was very fortunate to be involved in a project started by Dan Loeb, who's a great philanthropist, called the Simchat Torah Challenge.
And his kind of task to us is, like, get 10, 000 people over the course of the next year to commit to learning the weekly Parsha. That's it. We did it in two and a half weeks, because people are really and no, no thanks to any of our skills, talents, whatever.
It's just the real thirst for, for connecting to the source of renewable spiritual energy. That we all have. So, am I surprised by that? A little, but delighted.
Rabba Mor Shimonie: So I am new here, and you know Israelis, we love to argue.
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: No,
Rabba Mor Shimonie: we don't. We sit. Thank you. I was preparing this for you. And we talk a lot, and we sit together in our family dinners, and we just argue very loudly about politics. And then we kiss each other and go home. And we sit around this one Shabbat table.
It's so small. The country is so small. Like, you can't get away from Shabbat dinner. Like, it's very hard not to go to your parents for Shabbat. My wife has her thoughts about this. Never mind. so I came here and I'm working for the kitchen and I thought like a lot of people want to talk to me about Israel, right away.
They would want to like dive into the conflict and Zionism and the war and like really like I was like, okay, I'm here for you, whatever and Like nothing, nothing. And I'm like, okay, so they like, what's going on? Like, I was surprised because I, I, I, I'm again, I'm learning and I have a lot of respect for the community and the kitchens, like beautiful community does beautiful things in San Francisco.
And I think that they avoided a lot of the conflicts that. different congregations had between, like, the younger generation and the older generation that, like, felt like the tearing the community apart, it didn't happen in this community, but also I felt like, okay, but why aren't we talking? Like, what's going on?
And I felt like, okay, people, I'm surprised by the fact that people are afraid to speak to each other. And again, this is my, like, view of the things. I'm not telling that this is you, but this is what I'm feeling and seeing and approaching these things. And I was also surprised by, like, the fact that I heard, I asked, what happened at Post 10 7?
Did you have some conversations about it? And they were like, yeah, we had, that one conversations with the parents, with the kids. but we have established our own identity as diaspora Jews. And so we don't engage with Israel as much and now it's changed because they brought in Israel, like this was an intentional move, right?
But like for what they did before, it was just like, no, we don't, we, we don't talk about it. Maybe it's too painful, maybe it's too hard, maybe we don't have, we don't want to open that conversation because we don't know where it's going to lead us. But I was very surprised because I feel like the one thing that we learned in Israel, we are still struggling, but we love, again, we love arguing is that we have to talk.
We have to talk to each other. Like we have to have these hard conversations and just to finish this. One thing that happened just like this week is that there was a meeting like this community, both two communities get together from Elie and Niroz. Niroz is a kibbutz and Elie is a, is a settlement and a lot of Soldiers come out of Ali, and Niroz was on the Western Negev, like, was severely harmed with intensive.
And so, we, like, we do these things all the time, like, religious and secular and like this and left and right. We talk all the time, and here I felt like it's We're not talking anymore.
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Ladon: So I think the american jewish community needs to invest its time and effort and money There's a deep challenge for American Judaism to figure out the role of Israel in its Jewish self conception.
And I want to suggest, this is a diasporic Jewish problem, and in the Torah there's a great book by John Levinson, who's at Harvard Divinity School, called Sinai and Zion. in it, he Offers that there are two covenants in the Torah. There's the covenant of a mobile Judaism that you can take with you.
And there's the Zion Covenant is the covenant that you do in the land of Israel that you have to do. in Israel. That being in Israel is itself a Jewish expression, living there, sacrificing there, existing in the land. American Jews are very good at the Sinai Covenant. And in the global age, in when you said the peoplehood became a buzzword, you know, 15 years ago, one of the things that I noticed is Israel education developed about 25 years ago from what was Zionist education.
And part of that came out of a shift in a contemporary recognition that American Jews are not going to make Aliyah en masse. tomorrow. So our educational experience needs to shift from, oh, we're doing Zionist education in which the outcome is supposed to take you from wherever you live and bring you to Eretz Yisrael, to, oh, wait a minute, like, the Jews, 95 percent of the Jews are either in Israel or in North America.
They've gone from no home to two homes, and if they've gone from no home to two homes, as we, we like to say at the Harmon Institute, what does it mean to live with that seriously? And are American Jewish Religious technology has not created a way to understand Israel outside of this very minimal political Expression and I think that we need to figure out when you're arguing with your family on at Shabbat dinner
Rabba Mor Shimonie: a lot
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Ladon: right and we like I have limited family of blood.
I have lots of family through marriage in Israel. the political divides are dramatic, the religious divides are dramatic, all of the stuff. But when, when you're inside something, it's very easy to feel like, oh, we can argue and we're still part of this thing. But from over here, it's really hard to figure out what's the, what's the covenant of Zion that I'm doing from outside the land.
It doesn't make sense yet. So I think that we those of us who are committed American Jews who are committed to Zionism and Israel Actually really need to invest in thinking about what does it mean for me to be? a Jew that's committed to living in, in America, but who is also committed to Zion. And that it's not a simple answer.
It's not create this program for 25 to 32 year olds to do this. It's like we actually have to think out the intellectual side, the spiritual side, and then the active side.
Jennifer Mamlet: So Josh, I want to take that comment and go back to Liel, what you were talking about. I'm going to use the word surge for a minute just as the, as the word that was used earlier today.
And the surge is actually referencing, for those who don't know, it's it came out of research that the Jewish Federations of North America did post October 7th. They were It's what they're describing as a surge in Jewish life, a surge in Jewish activity, Jews wanting to be with other Jews, Jews wanting to engage differently.
So I said in my very brief introduction of myself, sitting at the JCCs of North America I think a lot about the role of institutions. Josh, you were just talking about like American Jews really having to think about this. I want to think for a minute. with you about the role of organizations here, Jewish organizations that take responsibility for strengthening Jewish community, more vibrant Jewish life, committed to the education of Jews, which organizations right now do you think are doing a good job?
Either inviting those conversations, guiding those conversations, seeding those conversations, enabling them. These are difficult more. We need safe and what Rachel Fish calls brave spaces to be able to do this constructively.
What is our responsibility? Who's doing a good job? Where are the gaps?
Rabba Mor Shimonie: Get ready.
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: You know, I will do my best to ameliorate this condition. You know, I have a good friend, David Goldman, who has this great saying, it's not the end of the world, it's just the end of you.
There are a lot of Jewish organizations doing a lot of good and there are a lot of, more importantly, Jewish individuals working for these organizations who are truly doing the Lord's work. So, you know, far be it for me to offend. I love and support and I'm here for anyone who is working for the Jewish people.
That having been said. we need one thing that I think we're not getting. The thing that we're not getting, there's a great Hebrew phrase, l'achlif disket. This comes from the old world of floppy disks. It's like, take this disk that you put in
And completely change our mindset. Josh one way to begin I read the book in question. I don't know why, but for some reason I violated my own vow to never read anything with the word Harvard on it. and found it to be exactly part of the problem.
As long as the conversation that you're having is had on someone else's terms, you are going to lose this conversation. And what I see in Jewish, large Jewish organizations, well meaning Jewish organizations still having very serious conversations about DEI, not understanding that this is foundationally antithetical to everything that we are.
What I see this morning, the conservative movement, Pass out a note to all rabbis saying we're very excited to launch on this week of all weeks a 1619 project of our own because what we need right now is to teach Jews that America was racist and founded on slavery.
It's just the end of you. The thing that we need now is institutions that are having this conversation on the terms in which we need to have this conversation. And it begins by understanding that there are no two covenants. There is one covenant and the one covenant has a very. central role for Zion in it, with the understanding that sometimes there will be a tension between, you know, Israel and the Diaspora, and that the goal of Zionism doesn't mean that we're all, you know, ready to pack up and actually make next year in Jerusalem a thing, because here's the thing about Jerusalem.
I mean, Jerusalem itself is not Jerusalem yet, right? I mean, if you're getting philosophical about it, there's an amazing kind of rabbinical discussion that happened right after the Six Day War, in which Jerusalem was unified, and a bunch of rabbis got together, and was like, oh, finally we could change some of the liturgy, we don't have to have some of this, yearning language in it.
And my beloved Rav Ovadia Yosef, of whom I have a giant oil portrait in my study, no joke said, no, you got it all wrong. The Jerusalem that you unified, right now, was the Jerusalem of below. The Jerusalem we pray for, is the Jerusalem of above. This is the whole point of Zionism. We don't need to go right now, nor did Israelis accomplish something that is simply accomplished by, you know, living in Ramadan.
We're all surging together, to use a term towards the same goal, which isfar higher than we could imagine.
Rabba Mor Shimonie: Can I add anything? So, I have a few things that I wrote before, but it fits now. I think that what you're saying is about, like, not having two covenants and just, like, focusing on the same This place that is like a hot potato literally like for everyone if we're looking at israel and zionism and zion is a place That is, like, an organic part of our Jewish existence and it is, it was a surprise that we managed to do it, like, right, it was like thinking out of the box, being so brave, being so innovative, like, we got to do this and we're still working on it, like, the fact it's like an organic part of Jewish life and Jewish history and now it allows us to ask questions that we never asked before.
What it means to have sovereignty. what it means to be Jewish and in power, what it means to be liberal and to have an active war on your, like, on your land. Israel and Ukraine. Ukraine was like, it's, it's old, but it's like being, sorry, being like independent is like 20, I think 23 year olds, but like Israel is a 75, 76 year old country that has, that had war even before it was established and after it was established.
And this is a, still a liberal democracy. It's still a liberal democracy. How do you be, how do, can you be Jewish, democratic, and liberal, and handle a war, like a real war, like on your, in your country. And I think like this, like, unfort, it's unfortunate, but this is a live, vital thing that is happening, and I think that we can say, it's too hard to talk about it, and it's far away and everything, but this is like an organic part of Jewish life.
And I think missing out on it or like not engaging with it, not being there, not seeing it, not understanding that these large questions we cannot ask them anywhere else is just missing out on like this main, main thing that is happening. Right now. It's been happening for a while now, but like from it's happening right now.
now we're building it. Now.
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: Moren, Josh, I'm genuinely curious. what if it wasn't a vibrant liberal democracy? Would that change the equation for you? Sorry to take your job away.
Rabba Mor Shimonie: He's Leah
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Ladon: It was
Jennifer Mamlet: a matter of time.
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Ladon: Leah what I hear you asking, just to and like, if this is a You're asking, is there a moment at which you, Josh, would say I'm giving up on Israel because they are no longer reflecting a certain set of values that I think Israel should?
Let's assume, close enough. For the sake of argument. There's a, there's an essay by Rav Shagar, who was a a post, he's like a orthodox rabbi, but he's post modern philosophy, and he's He, the, the, there's a academic blog run by Alan Brill and he, he makes the joke like, Oh, Rav Shigar is like a bunch of rabbis go to Hartman in the summer and then they discover Rav Shigar and they're like, Oh my God, he's so amazing.
All right. So that's who Rav Shigar is. He's so amazing. Yeah, but he is like, he's like the coolest band you've never heard of. Go read Rav And there's a couple of translations that just came out. He has this essay during the disengagement from Gaza. he's a Ravkukian religious Zionist.
So for him, the state has always been the pathway through which redemption is made to happen, right? And so he starts asking, Oh, if the state is going to be extracting Jews from Gaza It's clear for him that there's a break between his Religious zionism and the state and so therefore what do I do with that?
Do I? encourage my students to Disobey their military orders. Do I suggest right like so that's that's the essay. The reason why I bring it up is I'm jealous of Rav Shagar because it's clear for him right when you have a theology that is so clear so that's, that's part, that's part one of my answer.
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: So beautifully.
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Ladon: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. So I'll say the second thing when I lived in Jerusalem, I lived in Jerusalem in my twenties met my wife there. We were for seven years.
And when I lived in Jerusalem, I was like, you know anti-Zionist reformist Smolany, and then like I, I an anti Zionist reform leftist. It's not like reformed Jew, I wasn't religiously a reformed Jew, but like that's an epithet in, in Hebrew. And then I moved to Berkeley where I'm a right wing Zionist Nazi Orthodox Jew, and neither actually reflect who I am, but it means that the place and space where I live is is changing, it's changing, and I recalibrate, so that's, I am deeply committed to Israel and the Jewish people being sovereign in Israel.
And I'm deeply committed to, I mean, we, I think we probably we probably share some things around communitarianism and critiques of liberalism, but fall out politically on different sides of the communitarian camp. Only from some of the reading, writing, reading, writing, I've read in first links but the, the reason why I point that out is to say I believe in a, in a version of Israel that I'm committed to make happen.
And it's, you know, like, I'm really, really concerned with. The, the version of Zionism expressed by territorial maximalists who seem to be like the, you know, like there's a whole, I see myself in the religious Zionist camp, although in a far more on the Rav Amital and and and in the left wing of that camp.
There's a, yearning, right? It's not just exile. We're not just in exile. Yeah. But it's a Zionism of yearning and it continues to be that way. I don't know more. How would you answer?
Rabba Mor Shimonie: No, I agree. I think that, first of all, you're asking if it wasn't like that, but I, so I, we have, it's sometimes it doesn't feel like that as a prime minister for the past 20 years.
So it's like things are changing and shifting. It doesn't change our obligation, our connection to Israel and to this vision. So even more so, it's like giving us. continue, but I mean, I think the core is again, love and care to Zion. Like that is how you, you can measure, like you can define if someone has that, you can feel it.
It has the love and care for Zion. we might disagree. on how to do it exactly, but if we have the score we can, I think, I'm hopeful like Rabbi Jonathan Zag says, that we're not, Jews are not optimistic, they have hope so I think that is a thing that I can work with, No, I would not give up on Israel, even if it's like when it's going in directions that I don't think it should go.
But mainly because, like, I can find, my father might be the one supporting this road to go this way, and I'll be the other way, but he's my dad. And we sit together again, like I'm going back to this table, and I'm going back to these conversations that are so, meaningful to have. So it's like, you're not, You can't get away from it.
You can't. I mean, you can be here in San Francisco now, like in, sorry, Palo Alto, but for a few years, but you're not really getting away from being there and loving it and taking care of it, I think.
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: Look at that unity
Jennifer Mamlet: Thanks for adding a great question.
We
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: delivered.
Jennifer Mamlet: We delivered. We find ourselves at Z3. Even the name, the identity, the construct I think recognizes that this is an ideology that has shifted, right? The way that Zack has certainly and Amitai have talked about Zionism 1. the pre 48, the post 48 as 2. 0, and here we are in a 3. 0 with a strong diaspora and a strong Israel.
Do you think, based on this conversation, are we entering a 4. 0? And if we are, why? What, what's different? And if not, what do you think is going to ha It feels like we are in a moment of reckoning. It might be that we, you know, come to a place where we're kind of what I call renewing our vows, right?
We're committing back to the things that we held before. But where do you think we are in this moment? Are we on the cusp of something new? I
stumped you?
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: Well, again, my answer is the easiest, because I believe in covenantalism, and therefore I believe that every generation has their, you know, a Z of their own, if you will. I think it is incumbent upon every single generation to understand where they fit in this conversation. I think our generation has had the immense privilege to be here at, at this crucial juncture where it matters more than, more than anything.
And I think, you know if you believe wholeheartedly in Hashem, you believe that He never gives you anything that you can't fully handle and so we have all been chosen to use a, a great theme of, of Jewish life to handle this moment and we're doing it, you know, as, as well as anyone who loves and knows the Jewish people could have expected.
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Ladon: So I'll say, this is where I think the, my anxieties are on the separation between Judaism and Israel. Come to the fore, which I think is for me, at least, the change I hope to see. And it goes back to this question of which I think is Liel said like, oh, it's not actually institutions. It's like certain individuals are doing some things and certain institutions, people are doing the other thing.
What I have noticed is if you go into, if you were to track the sermons of American rabbis, My sense is you would not hear them talking about Israel, except when it's a political d'var Torah. And that they don't, most rabbis don't naturally pull out Oh, I'm going to quote an Israeli rabbi right now.
Right, so like there's a, there's been a real bifurcation and separation. The play, the way that played out for me, which I thought was very funny, is Sivan Zakai, whose work you should all look at around teaching kids about Israel edited a book about pedagogies of teaching Israel. And I wrote a chapter about what does it mean to teach about Israel using Jewish texts?
Because I work for Hartman and that's what we do. And, my chapter was the chapter that secondary readers didn't know what to do with. Meaning the, the, the Saudi. expat who teaches about Israel at the U. S. Military College, who wrote a chapter about his teaching, people were like, oh yeah, that's about teaching Israel, we totally understand.
The Jew who's talking about teaching about Israel using Jewish texts, and why is there Talmud on this source sheet? Because aren't I, aren't we supposed to be talking about Israel? Like, that's where the readers didn't know what to do. So, for me, the Z, like you know, like, I am
jaded about the tech world, the thing that I think the American Jewish community needs to look seriously at itself, what, like, about, you know, Oh, there is a serious critique of Zionism.
There is a deep fear of taking responsibility and power, and using power, that is coming from an anti Zionist Jewish community. I happen to think that their critiques are off base. I think they are mistaken. I think that they don't understand certain things. But unfortunately for myself, I come from having taught for a long time and being in a school teacher, which is where I sometimes suffer from thinking that you can teach people things and that you can be in conversation with them and maybe they'll change their minds or the future— I can teach a future generation.
But I think that we need to look at what is it about our ecosystem, our Jewish educational ecosystem. that brought about such serious critiques. And how do we take seriously, not to take seriously the critiques in that I'm finding legitimacy in their critiques, but actually how am I ensuring that I have the capacity to respond and to speak to a next level of student in a different way that serves them differently.
Rabba Mor Shimonie: Yeah, thank you. I think that, so I, again, I shared with you that I thought that I am, I took for granted a few, I took a few things for granted. Until 10 7, I never had any of my close friends go to reserve service and having this fear of not being in touch with them because they're in Lebanon or in Gaza and I don't know what's going to happen to them or I, I never had this experience of my cousin being in a safe room in Kfar Aza for 23 hours in 10 7 and Not being able to contact him and just like understanding that this Situation is our life.
I mean, it's funny to say that because I was so I was born I was six when Rabin was assassinated. I grew up during the second intifada Like it's not that it's new to me 10 7 was new to me It was so different. It was fundamentally like I don't even know how to how to say it in English but it changed our lives and I think that if we're talking about Zionism like 4.
I think we need to get away from all these definitions. Like we don't need another like updated version like no, we're just like, okay, let's Stop talking, like, about it. Stop analyzing it too much. I'm sorry, like, I know, but, I'm feeling that we can be, post that thing, and stop having a fear of conversation, and just begin to have this strong feeling and keep this strong feeling of responsibility for Zion and, if we're talking about Zionism and I think we are.
struggling and we might, we have to join forces. We have to forgive each other for like saying different things that we don't exactly agree on, like stop being purists. I'm talking about like Israel and Israel society, but you might feel the same and, and just act for Zion.
And I think that this is. Like we don't need another definition or another generation of Zionism. It's like this is, this, this really happened and now it's time to, to take part in, in this rebuilding.
Jennifer Mamlet: I heard somebody say recently that it's important that we, we grow comfortable speaking in first draft with one another.
And what you're talking about is like maybe not working so hard on definitions and language and sort of getting to the core of what we, I'm going to invite as I, as I move into this, if people have written questions, if you want to make sure that those little cards make their way up to me I, this is going to, we have a few minutes left and there's a little bit that we're going to do to wrap are there cards that are going to make their way up?
Thank you, Andy. As those cards are coming up I'm curious based on this and Liel, you you talked about us as the Chosen Ones at this moment.
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: it's an original creation. I came up with that. The Chosen People. Trademark.
Jennifer Mamlet: The Chosen People. Is that the phrase? Okay.
That's the phrase.
Rabba Mor Shimonie: The next buzzword.
Jennifer Mamlet: Assuming we are the Chosen Ones of this moment, assuming where we are right now and what we do with this moment clearly. matters. Let's go forward. It's 50 years, a hundred years from now, that next generation, two generations ahead are going to look back at this moment briefly.
What do each of you hope those, that future generation will say about the way we responded? And I recognize that this is really hard. I, even the, the question, I just want to acknowledge that. Thank you. That the question of, you know, what is Zionism after October 7th, we're still in the after October 7th, right?
We have to like recognize that this is still so palpable and so real. So it might be hard to answer from that perspective, but if we could what do you hope they're going to say about us?
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: Hope or think Those are different.
Jennifer Mamlet: That's fair answer as you wish.
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: you know, I I think they would Look at this moment, as as as we can I mean, we're privileged in this way to have to have some insight if we if we wish to you know, step back and observe I think They would find much to be critical of I for the life of me cannot understand the trepidation when it comes to self defense.
To me, the idea that every Jewish man, woman, and child is not packing heat is insane. The idea that when you have aggressors on campus or elsewhere, you don't go and tell the Dean and really hope you go and do what those nice kids at UCLA did. Which is you go and you solve your fricking problem, and then there's no more problem.
I think those future generations would look at us with a lot of admiration and understand that a lot of what we have done in these moments, like the Simchat Torah project, like this, the fact that there are 1, 200 people, you know, and the Bay Area on a Sunday, coming to talk about this and really engage is amazing to me.
but what I hope is that they will do. Precisely what I did, and I think a lot of other people in this room did this morning, which is put on my tefillin and daven exactly as my ancestors had thousands of years ago. If that chain is unbroken, then this moment in history would be just that, another link.
Jennifer Mamlet: Peoplehood.
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Ladon: I think it's a,
I'm
highly skeptical of, I think like, I'm highly skeptical of the, I guess my hope is that I don't know if I can imagine the future right now. I think it's really hard. I think I was on one hand, you know, Ami Yehudah Amichai has this amazing poem where he's like the father is talking to the son and he's like, the 12th commandment is never change and the 11th commandment is always change and then it's like, right?
And, and, and I, because Liel as you're talking, I'm thinking about, oh, my daughter just became bat mitzvah last weekend. Thank you. And, and you know, she's like, puts on tefillin at her small modern Orthodox day school. And I'm like, oh, that's not what her bubby did. Or what my bubby did. And so on one hand.
I'm hopeful that, you know, like, I hope that Israel is able to stand strong. I also hope that it's able to solve and think through some of its deep existential challenges right now.
Like, none of us are walking around saying we're mi nadi. Like, okay. most people are hasam.
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: And
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Ladon: Em, yeah. And meaning most people are not the Lithuanian school that said, oh, we're against them. They're like, the Hasidic world came out and transformed contemporary Jewry.
So it's hard to say what the Jews will look like, but I'm hopeful it will be. Better.
Rabba Mor Shimonie: Amen. So I want to quote Gordon, Ade Gordon he was a Jewish philosopher, teacher, Zionist pioneer and in the past year I went, like, back to his text many, many times. So he says, this is of course translated. He says, if you have a hurting heart, if you have a soul that can some way serve as a vessel for the nation's sorrow, then you have something to bring. If you have a restless mind, hidden emotional upheaval, whose secret you have not yet uncovered, a dream without resolution, then you have something to bring.
If there is a spirit of life within you, a spirit of yearning for life, for creation, then you have something to bring. And if you possess deep despair, despair that knows no compromise, meaning if you have a share in the great despair, then you have something to bring. So I wish my future kids will think of us as the people who were might have this huge sorrow and despair, and they decided that they have something to bring.
Jennifer Mamlet: Beautiful. I'm keeping an eye on the time. Always the facilitator's job is to do two things at one, in the same time. One is to, like, I wanna be respectful to the audience, and particularly the three very good questions that I'm holding in my hand, and my responsibility to the rest of you to get you out on time.
So what I'm going to do, knowing that we are supposed to end in one minute, I'm gonna take the moment to ask one final question, sort of rapid fire to the three people that ask questions. If you want to find our panelists at some point today, I'm sure they would be eager to engage with you directly.
Mor you just ended reading a beautiful piece and and really inspiring and I'm just curious if we could do this like lightning round. Is there a text, a reading, something, this is like the hope question, right? But I'll do it in a in a way. Do you find yourselves returning to a quote, a reading, an author, an artist, a colleague to sort of keep your hope light alive to keep that candle lit?
And I think we could all use some more inspiration, so.
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: More? I already gave one.
Rabba Mor Shimonie: you start.
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Ladon: I mean, I'll say I feel like Ruth Calderon's Knesset speech immediately became a Jewish text that I return to regularly. And then Moshe Avigdor Amiel was the first chief Ashkenazi, chief rabbi of Tel Aviv. And after October 7th, and actually before October 7th, during the democracy upheaval I went, I started rereading his stuff and he's a religious Zionist rabbi that doesn't sound like our contemporary religious Zionist rabbis.
Dr. Liel Leibovitz: My answer is always going to be Talmud. It's 63 volumes. It's a very easy read. You know, take it to the beach. It's lovely. But, there's one verse in Mishnah which is very famous and deserves to be, pondered again and again, which is it is not your duty to finish the job, but nor are you free to step away. This is where we are.
Jennifer Mamlet: Thank you and thank you all. Please thank our panelists.
